The Metro ran a slur headline today calling casino opponents the ‘coalition of the unwilling’. When the name calling starts, it must mean the other side is getting scared.

‘‘Ubi Bene Ibi Patria’ What a great Latin expression, Glissando. That’s why Larry has a ‘The Beasley’ in town and we don’t… 🙂
Anyway, what did it for me from that list was ‘Shane Koyczan, Olympic poet’ LOL
Check out mine (only joking):
1333 Higgins Henry, Professor of phonetics

Frances, when you start the “less than prominent names opposed to casino expansion” feel free to toss mine in there.

Casinos do not provide good jobs. I have that on the experience of a close friend that completed the training and worked for several months on the Casino on Broadway.

Besides, any business that runs on the premise that “what happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas” is not reputable enough to be anything but tightly very tightly regulated.

I still prefer the Monaco version. One site. Super luxe. Full stop.

Wow Frances, I never thought I would see you give Alex. G a pat on the back..:)

What I wonder, if this casino is a no go, will Paragon stick around or pack up shop and go elsewhere.

There are 800 employees who currenlty rely on the Edgewater to put food on their tables and
there is no gurantee that if this proposal does not go through, Paragon will stick around.

@ Max, Paragon purchased Edgewater out of bankruptcy in 2006, for $42 million–a “song” in the casino world. They did not bid on the stadium project until spring 2009.

So presumably their company doesn’t rely on getting a casino floor the size of 2 football stadiums in order to survive.

They’ve never developed or operated a casino anywhere near the scale of the proposed project–which should make a few people wonder about how they were ever the successful bidder in the first place.

Is anybody in favour of the Casino, other than for the reason that the City derives money from it? In other words, how many support gambling for gambling’s sake? Looked at that way, it seems to me casino supporters are just holding their nose and pimping out the well-being of the community for a few bucks.

@ Everyman. You know I’ve gone out with my friends to the RiverRock casino on a few occasions. Had dinner, played a few hands of blackjack, threw a few bucks into the penny slots, had a few drinks. Even the Designated Driver enjoyed himself. In the end, including dinner I probably drop about 100 dollars for the night out. Probably I do it once or twice a year.

So from personal experience I don’t have a problem with casinos. I think they are fun. However, having said that, I realize the addiction and social problems that stem from widespread gambling. So I guess I’m decidedly undecided, but I do feel there must be a way to mitigate or eliminate the adverse social aspect so that expanded gambling becomes a win for all parties.

Paul @16. Good point. Noone can or wants to shut down gambling as it exists now (well actually in Monaco, they even don’t allow citizens to gamble. You must have a passport Now there’s an idea to test the “tourist destination” gambling line put out by Paragon!)

But the facts remain that there are many problems in this industry –both inside and outside the casino.

So why expand, if we can’t handle the crime problems that already exist in casinos now? And why expand when BCLC’s own report says that while 4.6% of the population are “problem gamblers (that’s 21, 000 in Vancouver), another 9% are AT RISK gamnblers.

Hmmm, so 14% are at or very close to the line? Don’t like those odds too much? And the stats for younger gamblers are even worse.

The point is, casinos are designed to hook you, and hard-wire your pleasure centre. The costs of this?

Well I listened to former AG Geoff Plant on David Berner’s show the other night and he said:

‘ Why would you deliberately set out to expand an enterprise that presents so many problems?

Is the upside, in terms of benefits, actually a net gain to society as a whole, because of the downsides of extra resources needed to deal with problems that we have DELIBERATELY CREATED A FRAMEWORK FOR?’

According to Plant, “It’s bad public policy”.

I think we have enough casino’s. That the government want to build ’em bigger and badder, should give us all pause.

Easy, sleazy money. No need to bother people with raising taxes since the midde class and disproportionately poorer and more desperate people will be happy to fork over their money to support the system.

As for building a new casino, 3 times the size of the current one, hey, can we site it in your neighbourhood? 🙂

It’s interesting that Monaco doesn’t allow locals to gamble. Neither does the Bahamas. Both Monaco and the Bahamas, not unlike Vegas and Reno, have little else to entice tourists to spend money there (actually the Bahamas does have good weather and lots of terrific beaches). These two places should be telling us something.

These places don’t have much choice when it comes to generating income for their citizens. Vancouver, on the other hand, does have many choices. We also have a wonderful education system and dynamic business and industrial sectors.

Concern for the long term health of our society, not just those individuals and families who will be casualties, means we must stay focused on our ability to create real wealth and real jobs.

This casino proposal is not Vancouver

The Thought of The Evening

“Comparing Vancouver with Monaco is wishful thinking, my friends. I too, dream of minivan driving to IKEA one day, with my wife, to buy a set of lamps, bed covers, and perhaps a pair of kitchen gloves… and come back in an Aston Martin, Claudia Schiffer to my right, and a case full of $$$$$$ in the trunk.”

That would be the day!
(Now, for obvious reasons – wife reading in-, my ‘Thought of The Evening’ will auto-destroy in… 5, 4, 3, 2, 1…)

Having said that, let’s be honest for a moment. All Casinos, all other the world, serve a unique purpose – make their owners filthy rich. Period. The Casinos are a shrewd business, and not in the ‘charity’ business. Well, the lazy, over inflated, incompetent BC bureaucracy that we have here, wants you to think they are. The reality is the Government wants a cut, EZ money, so they could add another Ministry to their portfolio of useless Ministries. As long as every ego-maniacal politician gets to be a Minister, all is good, they’re laughing. Sure, yeah, they dispense some dough to a select number of charities, though I wouldn’t be surprised to find one in Kits, called ‘Nudists Against Gambling While High’ in there. It would only makes sense.

Going back to Monaco…now, stop me if I’m wrong, it’s one thing to bet a hand worth 14 million dollars , while you sip a Martini, shaken not stirred, having the Mediterranean Sea at your feet, and a completely different one to play your paycheck having the view of the 500 million dollars BC Place roof to your left and the Telus World of Science to your right. But that’s me, I’m sooooo picky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9fyOFefirQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp

There. As for the next public meeting, here’s my idea for fun, why listen to 80 plus speakers crying out loud in opposition? I say, ‘City of Vancouver, ‘Be The Bank’ for one night. Spread out a few poker tables, and invite the owners of said Casino to gamble away their fortunes. All in, no prisoners. See how they feel when they leave the chambers penniless, and by night bus service. The city would have a balanced budget for 2011 and the 80 + crowd would go back home entertained and energized.
But again, that’s me and I’m soooo picky.

We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.

dan mangan – don’t know how much pull that guy has!

@Paul, the indie kids shall protest!

I’m glad to see people are trying to do something, but I do get the feeling it’s a done deal.

I don’t have a problem with the casino application.

Vancouver is no longer some small town sitting on the coast yet is seems some wish to keep it that way. We want to attract tourism and large conventions, yet, once here there has to be other options for people (traveling) to enjoy aside from the nightclub district.

Having an all availble entertainment complex such as the RiverRock or Red Robinson’s availble in the downtown area opens another door.

I also do not see the need for a ‘nanny state’. It is tiring listening to people blame the government for all the ills that people more or less, bring upon themselves – when it is convenient or suits their need to do so.

Personal responsibility is a ‘dying art’ and it has become way too easy to point the finger at someone else and blame them for not stopping personal bad behaviour.

It is government’s fault because they didn’t stop me from drinking. It is the government’s fault because they didn’t stop me from smoking. It is the government’s fault because they didn’t stop me from gambling. It is the government’s fault because they didn’t stop me from doing drugs. It is the government’s fault because I dropped out of school and can’t find anything but an $8.00 job….and that list goes on.

The government is not our personal babysitter and never should be.

There are uncanny parallels between the unrolling of the HST and the present casino proposal. In the abstract, both have some merits but the method of unveiling leaves something to be desired.

Further, PAVCO have acted as if False Creek was a provincially controlled central entertainment district without actually having it zoned as such by the city.

I would call it an expectations gap.
-30-

@ Derek W #31

That same ‘theory’ was praded by opponents to the MMA being hosted here as well.

The city should offer all inclusive activities/facilities – not just those that don’t insense someone’s moral objections or sensitivites.

That’s what they’re saying GJG, but the math doesn’t add up. All PAVCO is getting from the casino is $6 million/yr for rent, which would take more than a century to pay off the roof, even with little or no inflation …

It’s the entire development surrounding the stadium that is being used to pay for the roof, and at just $6 million/yr, the casino appears to be just a small part of it.

I’d suggest the roof should be part of a capital plan by the province, like all other major infrastructure, paid for by those who use the facility over time.

@ Sean Bickerton #36… User pay is good in theory however for some things the reality is that users of the facility will never be able to pay up for it’s existence. Stadiums are usually a losing proposition for any government that erects them. At least when you look at the direct fee for usage. Once you calculate the net economic benefit of having them and the tax revenue from those spin-off industries, the picture is a lot better.

At a price tag now pushing $600 million, that roof sure has a shaky-sounding business plan. And with no guarantees the citizens or City Council are behind a Liberal-backed mega-casino, it’s starting to look like PAVCO is, once again, going to sock taxpayers for a big one.

It’s soooo responsible of Campbell and his cronies to gamble so loosely with our money, again.

It’s almost like they are addicted…

At Max 41:

Read that language again carefully. None of the Las Vegas names mentioned refer to properties owned, operated, or developed by Paragon Gaming or its principals.

All the Las Vegas projects named were operated by the father of one of the principals, and he retired in 1994, 6 years before Paragon Gaming was founded. He died in 2002.

A company over the course of its business develops its own niche and brand. Paragon Gaming’s true niche is in small market reservation projects.

Their largest project, River Cree, on a reserve near the West Edmonton Mall in Edmonton, has less than half the gaming capacity that the completed Edgewater will have.

Neither it, nor any of Paragon’s other projects serve a tourism market, let alone an international luxury driven tourist market.

Max @30

Hey, not against people going out for a fllutter. I buy the occasional lottery ticket myself. It’s the scope of the expansion of gaming that I am against.

This is not a good thing for the surrounding neighbourhoods, some of which already have too many challenges.

The Edmonton casino you talk about by thw way is outside the city centre, as are all current Paragon projects. They don’t impinge on neighbourhoods. Same thing with River Rock and the one in Burnaby.

It may not be the government’s fault that someone goes off the rails with addictions, but it’s a fact that we have to pay for the addicted.

In the US, it’s estimated that every problem gambler costs the state $13,200 per year (fraud, theft, social services for gambler and family) . With an acknowledged 21,000 “problem” gamblers and an additional 9% of the population deemed to be “at risk” gamblers in Vancouver (from the little info offered by BCLC on it’s own site), you do the math.

A new, greatly enlarged casino is there to do one thing and one thing only: draw more people in. And statistically proble gamblers provide 35% of the revenues to casinos.

I know that as a taxpayer that that cost of addiction is just one additional cost that will be borne by taxpayers.

Please go to dontgamblevancouver.wordpress.com
and look for the 2008 for a gaming expert (hired by the Ford Foundation to look at the economic effects of gaming) who provides some fascinating stats on the gambling industry.

This project is not sustainable, in far too many ways.

Ron,

Two football fields. That seems pretty big to me.

@ Max 47.

Interesting. Is this part of a deliberate strategy?

STEP 1:
Intentionally overbook council meetings. — Vision is — I’m going over each agenda in detail and there are 3, 4 or more major items on each agenda. This is unprecedented! It is also deliberately not allowing sober 1st thought much less 2nd thought on the part of Councillors or the public.

STEP 2:
Delay, delay, delay, and hope everyone forgets to come back to support or oppose whatever the resolution of the hour happens to be.

The same tactic is being used at the community spot rezoning level. Saturate the neighbourhood with meetings without purpose or consequence until they wear the public into submission.

Vision’s tactics here are clear:

WEAR THE PUBLIC DOWN, THEN WAIT THEM OUT.

@Gerry, I think you are talking about the arcade/indoor climbing wall that was at the plaza of nations.