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New Vancouver city hall rule: Staff should be seen but not heard

November 22nd, 2010 · 62 Comments

I’ve seen three new councils come in to city hall in the past eight years and every one has experienced some discomfort about the way reporters go to staff for information, information that is occasionally at odds with what the councillors are saying.

There’s occasional grumbling about the level of power they seem to exert. (One political staffer noted bitterly that an advertisement for city staff used the slogan at one point, “We run the city.”) But by and large, the new councils have adapted and come to grips with the fact that the thousands of bureaucrats they allegedly oversee actually know something and are excellent public-relations ambassadors for the city.

They give reporters explanations about complex issues and they do it in a way that removes some of the politicization from particularly contentious initiatives. (Note how council recently made sure to send out their engineers to explain the process of designing and building the Hornby Street bike lane during public consultations.)

But apparently things are changing at the hall. I called three planners last week to talk about a relatively innocuous report going to council last Thursday: a report about efforts to deal with noise around the two stadiums that will impact the 7,000 people who will eventually move in there. Important note: This was not a controversial report or one that was likely to split on political lines or one that was likely to set off any more neighbourhood commentary than already existed.

It’s the kind of call I’ve made hundreds of times over the past decade and a half, as have many in the city, which the city has always made easy for anyone to do by printing the names and phone numbers of the people who wrote the report at the top.

But I didn’t get a call back from any of those planners, as I normally would. Instead, I got a call from communications officer Wendy Stewart, who explained to me that I wouldn’t be getting any calls back.

That’s because it has created some awkward moments in the past, she said, when reporters have done stories about reports, quoting staff, and councillors have had to scramble to catch up. (I’m not quoting verbatim because Wendy called when I was walking around on the street and didn’t have my notebook with me.)

So, in order to prevent councillors from being asked to comment when they’re not ready to, staff are no longer going to be returning calls about staff reports.

Wendy Stewart suggested that I call COPE Councillor David Cadman instead. Which I did and, while I’m sure David cares deeply about noise in general in the city and has championed anti-noise initiatives, he knew almost nothing about the specifics of this report and didn’t have answers to the technical questions I had. No surprise, since it’s really staff and the legal department who initiated this particular effort to come up with noise-minimization measures.

This is unprecedented and a sad day for everyone who covers the hall. I’m also not totally surprised at this rather blunt statement. I’ve noticed over the past while that staff sound more nervous and cautious when I call to have them explain something to me. I’ve heard through various channels that staff have been told bluntly not to say anything about particular high-profile issues, like the casino.

And I’ve had staff on occasion ask me not to mention to any councillors that I’ve even been talking to them (let alone quoting them in stories), as those councillors apparently get upset when they something to me and I say, “Well, that’s not what I’ve heard from Planner X or Engineer Y.”

As well, I understand that one of the areas of conflict around former FOI officer Paul Hancock was that he would release FOI documents that were requested by media without notifying anyone else at city hall. That also occasionally created embarrassing moments, when councillors were being asked to comment on released documents that they didn’t know anything about.

The plan for the future is to have a notification system internally, so that everyone is briefed and ready to go when an FOI document is released. (I’ve checked with Darrell Evans of the Freedom of Information and Privacy Association and apparently this is not illegal, as long as there is no interference with the request.)

I can understand the Vision team wanting to figure out new ways to deal with messaging. They’ve facing a new, energetic and unusual kind of opposition in Citycaucus.com, two former staffers in Sam Sullivan’s office who have used their insider knowledge of city hall to get information, through FOI and other means.

But in their struggle for control, they’ve gone too far. In the past, it’s been accepted practice that reporters wait until city reporters are posted online before calling councillors (even if we knew about them in advance), to give councillors a chance to read them before getting calls.

But this goes beyond that. Now staff can’t even comment once the report is out, so as to give councillors the stage to themselves where they may or may not be delivering accurate information. (I note that the bureaucrat to whom this does not apply is Penny Ballem, who usually takes over doing the actual explaining of complex issues once Mayor Gregor Robertson has delivered his crafted message on whatever the topic at hand is.)

The bureaucrats at city hall are knowledgeable professionals, whose efforts to explain difficult issues for reporters have only worked to the city’s benefit.

If councillors are concerned because they sometimes appear to be less knowledgeable than their staff or even at odds with them, I’d suggest that the solution is not telling staff they can’t speak.

Categories: City Hall Talk

  • Morven

    A complex interplay of journalism ethics and political ethics.

    Has city hall ever thought of using the concept of an embargo on reports until elected representatives have read the reports and a staff member available for deep background to media while they read the report ?

    At least the taxpayers might have the satisfaction of knowing the elected representatives have read the reports and that the media have made an effort to understand them.

    But a full fledged information clamp down is somewhat draconian since it is the taxpayers money that is at stake.

    I am not a media person but I detest censorship in any form.
    -30-

  • Frances Bula

    @ Morven. As I mentioned, but perhaps not clearly enough, the practice in the past has been to not distribute the reports until they have gone out to councillors first so that they can be prepared for reporters. But apparently that’s now not enough.

  • jesse

    Ah the old information control play. The City already has a morale problem. Gagging officials is ham fisted and will probably end up backfiring. Having the bureaucracy somewhat open is, in my view, an important part of democracy. The info will get out eventually, often in ways much worse than talking directly to the service.

    I don’t know David Cadman but I’m sure he’s a lot smarter than he’ll come across if he plans on fielding a litany of mundane questions to which he doesn’t really understand the answers.

    Now what, Michael Geller, would you do? 😉

  • TD

    Finally Frances, you admitted, not straightforwardly though, that there are signs of Dracula’s public relations in action inside Vancouver City Hall. You know too well that behind any reason there is a hidden agenda. And as it turned out you are not on it, my oh, my.
    This should be your wake up call. Better late than never. You’ve worked too hard for making a name for yourself in the past. It would be a sad moment to see you go to the recycling bin together with the vision commissars when they’ll go in a year from now. And they will. That’s a guarantee!

  • Morven

    @ Frances

    Thank you for the correction.

    There may not be any perfect model for information release but blocking media access (and thus the public access) is a strategic mistake.

    There are in-camera hearings for confidential information. But as a taxpayer I find it incredibly frustrating and offensive to my concept of democracy when non-confidential city reports are released on the web site about an hour before a meeting or at the committee door.

    Not always but often enough to become offensive.

    Perhaps VISION, if it had any democratic instincts, would put out a consultation paper laying out the regulatory and democratic costs and benefits of changing the form of information management (including perhaps a code of practice).

    Anything less and taxpayers like myself may assume that the proposed information control is based on political expediency rather than transparency and accountability.

    Anything that muzzles the media, muzzles the citizens.
    -30-

  • Fred

    The Vision Cone of Silence has been revealed.

    They can try and control information, but they will fail.

    Just a matter of time.

  • Jason King

    I can’t say I’m surprised. Most of us watching this mayor/council from the “outside” see a very polarized, ideologically driven group of individuals. Controlling all information and messaging is just the next step in the process.

    Pro-Vision individuals have claimed that the staff exodus that has taken place under their watch is just the result of a “changing of the guard”, when in actual fact it’s the result of a fundamental change in the relationship with the bureaucracy that is focused on politicizing them, and ensuring everyone is on board with their messaging, whether it’s fact based or not.

    Whether you’re pro or anti Vision, none of this is good for democracy….not to mention the obvious hypocrisy coming from a government that ran on more “transparency” at city hall.

  • Ken Lawson

    I have written them off, just waiting for 2011 Election, they are basketcase of wing nuts!

  • Ken Lawson

    Can you imagine Gregor Robertson being Premier along with Penny Bellam and you think the Liberals are bad now.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    So as a private citizen I can contact city hall staff directly for information but if I’m in the media I can’t.

    Simple-minded and amateurish that is more befitting the operation of a hamlet.

    just fyi, Gregor’s inaugural speech:

    “We will set clear targets, measure success, and be accountable for our actions.

    That accountability must extend to every aspect of City Hall. When the city uses your money, you have a right to know where it’s being spent, and what it’s being used for. When leaders fall short of that standard, public confidence is shaken.

    Over the next three years, we will rebuild that confidence, and ensure transparency, accountability and public debate at City Hall.”

  • landlord

    Dear me. What next? Allen Garr getting miffed that maybe Mike Magee has been saying he’s “easy” behind his back?

    Is there a doctor in the house? Oh, that’s right, the Mayor put one in charge. (old joke: difference between doctors and God? God doesn’t think he’s a doctor).

    In any case we don’t want Councillors to be “embarrassed” or “upset”. That would never do. They’re far too busy checking for open microphones and selling overpriced condos to be expected to read long boring reports. Just give me the Executive Summary and Recommendations and remind me which way we’re voting. Then figure out how much longer I have to put up with this shit before I qualify for that pension. On top of everything Tieleman’s stopped taking my calls.

  • Frances Bula

    @TD. Oh my, oh my, do you guys ever get tired of spinning this line that every reporter who isn’t actually taking a poop on Vision at every conscious moment of the day is in bed with them?

  • Bill McCreery

    This is another in a series of poorly thought through Vision initiatives but, revealing nevertheless. It is particularly significant because it censors the essential flow of information and knowledge between staff, Council, the media and thence to voters which is essential in a democracy. The 4th estate, as I’ve said before, plays a crucial, special role in our democratic society. That’s why they have the special status of the 4th estate in addition to the other estates of religion, the legislature, & the military.

    It is essential that this gag be removed immediately. There is little wrong with the previous process FB described in my mind. Perhaps a bit of fine tuning may be necessary. Eg: staff briefings to Councilors before the reports are released & more attention paid to the shear volume Councilors are expected to absorb each week. The sometimes 12″ high stack of reports which landed on my desk on Friday’s as a Park Commissioner meant I spent the weekend trying to cover it all to be ready for the Monday meeting was bad enough years ago. I am sure there is even more volume now

    Why can’t you Francis, as a reporter speak to & get information on projects like the casino? This is another unfortunate twist in this tangled web. I wondered why the public is not seeing the kinds of articles, based on my experience, which we should be seeing from the media given the nature and number of different initiatives on the go.

    History tells me that those who attempt to censor the public, censor themselves in the end.

  • John

    I wonder how much of this is really just a reflection of poor internal communication or processes at City Hall. The problem, as described by Frances, is essentially that some members of the team (staff) are saying different things than other members (councillors). Perhaps if they worked a little harder at keeping everyone inside the fence informed, this would not be as much of an issue. Staffers, keep some internal web page or document updated with summaries of your discussions with reporters, and councillors, keep your eye on it.

  • Higgins

    Naah, media gag orders? Money changing hands between charities? BTW what an insult to call these Vision connected .org’s, ‘charities’. Censorship and spin, lying, bullying, nepotism, cronyism, and on and on… Is this list complete Frances? And for some reason, you just found out about it? The joke’s on you! LMAO

  • Agustin

    It would be good to see an interview with Wendy Stewart or someone in council (perhaps the mayor?) on this subject.

  • Westender1

    Now the media knows how members of the public feel when we try to get information from the “overlords.”

  • landlord

    @Frances 12: “do you guys ever get tired of spinning this line”?

    Not as long as the counter-spin continues. Case in point Mr. Garr’s latest opinion piece.

    Apparently a Mr. Phillip LeGood has documents which prove that it’s all the fault of Sam Sullivan and Judy Rogers with the rather confusing involvement of the UDI and Peter Ladner’s campaign manager

    . Nothing to do with Vision at all. They’re doing the best they can in a difficult situation not of their making. And so on.

    Press release journalism and un-confirmed sources no better than hearsay. Documents he doesn’t publish. No quotes from interviews. Don’t get me started on fact-checking.

    Standards used to be higher and there was such a thing as integrity. Sacrificed on the altar of Mr. Solomon’s Higher Purpose. Sad, really.

  • Joe Just Joe

    Thanks Frances for writing this. Not because of it showing the current council in any sort of light, but by writing this you are ensuring that things will now change again. I’m sure you will be contacted shortly if you haven’t already and this whole misunderstanding will be corrected.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    Indeed, this will be the fastest whiplash inducing about face in the history of the city!

  • Glissando Remmy

    The Thought of The Day

    “To me, this new access to information inconvenience it reads ‘Shut up and Talk to me!'”

    Nothing like, ‘sonny boy, when I’ll ask for your opinion…I’ll give it to you!’, followed up by some true Vision ‘Americanisms’:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrNl6-j9x5w

    We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.

  • spartikus

    Will Candidate McCreery unambiguously pledge his party to rescind these rules and allow City Staff to speak freely to the press, if elected?

    And while I’m at it, will the NPA outline specific, concrete steps to ensure transparency and openness in government.
    Like formal protection for whistle-blowers in the collective bargaining agreements.

  • mary

    Frances has just about nailed it. It is even worse than described. The fact that reports don’t get posted publicly until the Friday or even the Monday before Tuesday’s council meeting is another way of limiting public and media access to the goings on. Staff aren’t even allowed to answer the most mundane questions about their reports. This on top of the politicization of the reports and recommendations themselves, compared to previous administrations, makes an alarming trend. As Bill McCeery says, it’s bad for democracy.

    And yes I know McCreery is an NPA council nominee and no, I am not an NPA hack. *&$#! or otherwise.

  • Mo

    “I am not a media person but I detest censorship in any form”

    Any attempt at gagging people will fail.
    -30-

  • Bill McCreery

    @ Spartikus 22.

    The unequivical answer from Candidate McCreery is yes! “Staff” must be able “to speak freely to the press”. It is an essential component of maintaining a healthy democratic process. All parties involved in this process need to be knowledgeable and that means they need access to information and informed opinion. It’s a multi-dimensional back and forth communication process. One which, when I’ve seen it properly function, produces worthwhile, constructive, exciting results and which has a tendency to bring communities together. With-holding access to information does the opposite.

    We intend to put forward quite specific policies on these and other important issues leading up to the election so voters will have full opportunity to consider them and to question and debate them with us. And, yes, I am committed to the principles which are necessary to protect whistle blowers. That phenomenon is another facet of the above.

  • Bill McCreery

    @ Mary 23.

    You’ve struck the key chord Mary with “the politicization of the reports and recommendations themselves”. The reason that the Vision Council and political staff need to instigate these draconian 1984 measures is precisely because of the disconnect which is occurring when professional and technical staff reports are massaged by the political staff under the direction of the Vision Council. By the time these reports are rewritten to reflect the particular Vision philosophical perspective or objective, the staff background work becomes disconnected with the published report. So, it’s not surprising there are also disconnects when staff and Councillors talk to the media.

    Practices such as these are necessary in a totalitarian state, they are foreign to a democracy.

  • Ready To Rumble

    Thank God and welcome back to reality. Frances, you’ve been greatly missed.I thought they lobotomized you, just in case they’re using shock treatments, stay away from all electrical outlets at City Hall.

    On a sad note, someone turned up at the NPA nomination on Saturday that could completely renew and rejuvenate Grandpa’s party but those sad old farts probably can’t figure out who it was and would never have the guts to nominate her.

  • Morven

    @Bill McCreery 25

    Thank you Bill for that unequivocal declaration.

    The problem I have with the VISION driven information impediments is that staff and elected representatives should not have the same things to say.

    Staff reports in many cases assemble the evidence base, propose options then provide recommendations based on the strength of the evidence and their own experience. When our esteemed elected representatives make their decision(s), they are not bound to stick to the evidence base (but it would be nice) but make their decisions based on political considerations.

    That is the theory.

    The practice is different. While I cannot speak of Vancouver city directly, I know from my own experience in the resource field, that the decision makers inevitably want to backcast and have reports pre-justify their decisions.

    Does this happen? Yes. But if it is endemic then reputations both political and professional are tarnished.

    If we want to have an accountable system, we should ensure that city staff are able to present their professional and other views to a wider audience (who pay the taxes) and not be ciphers of the political system.

    Will things change? Perhaps.
    -30-

  • Mark Allerton

    Even as someone who has been generally supportive of this council’s policies, this rubs me the wrong way.

    This kind of communication policy is not unheard of in big businesses – especially publicly traded companies, but the City of Vancouver is not a publicly traded company.

    I’d be slightly more sympathetic if enquiries were forwarded to official spokespeople who were in possession of the facts, but if instead they are just punted to councillors who have no clue – as appears to be happening – then it seems like everyone is being done a disservice.

  • Tessa

    This is a very sad development. I hope we can get some answers and further pressure on city hall to change this back. In particular, I would like to know who specifically initiated this change, whether citizens who aren’t members of the media can call up and ask questions or if we’re also shut out of city hall, and how this can possibly be in line with Robertson’s statements prior to and shortly after his election in 2008, which are quoted above.

  • Bobbie Bees

    This sounds very much like a management ploy that has been implemented not by council but by some pencil pusher who is still sympathetic to Sam Sullivan and holds allegiance to the NPA and is doing this to make it look as if Cope/Vision are out to ruin democracy.

    Kinda like how the NPA old guard that still hold fort in the upper echelons on city hall management tried to make Gregor wear the embarrassment of city hall being vacated with various departments leaving for pricey digs in commercial buildings. Sad thing was anyone with two firing brain cells could do an FOI and find out that it was Sam Sullivan and Co. that signed all of these leases.

    Maybe that’s the true reason for upper management trying to kibosh FOI’s. They want to make Gregor look bad while at the same time brushing the stupidity of the NPA into the memory hole.

  • rf

    Hey Bobbie, if you can find a way to suggest that this policy is an NPA plot, you have drank the special US Thanksgiving Day Vision kool-aid.

    I guess(it should be quiet the rest of the week around the Vision caucus, right? Don’t they all head home for Thanksgiving?”

  • landlord

    It’s all Sam Sullivan’s fault? Sabotage by the NPA underground in senior management? They want to “make Gregor look bad ” and “make it look as if Cope/Vision are out to ruin democracy”??? They’re trying to re-fight the last election?????

    That’s your campaign strategy for 2011? Sounds exactly like Gordon Campbell: “We haven’t done a good job of getting our message out there”.

    Maybe you should have Stratcomm pay a few more “journalists” to put a shine on the turd.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    Last week I came down with a little sinus infection. That damned NPA, I must have caught it from a member!

    Frankly, just save it.

    Throughout George Bush’s 8 years, right up to the last, it was common for the republican house members to blame Bill Clinton’s penis for everything from the Iraq war to Hurricane Katrina following his indiscretion in the oval office with an intern, a cigar and a blue dress.

    Tax cuts were needed for the rich to keep our economy moving in the last recession. Must have been the fault of the almighty Clenis!

  • Jason King

    Bobbie Bees…could we get an expected date when the mistakes of this administration will actually be attributed to THIS administration?

    Seems to me these guys have been in power long enough for them to bare responsibility for their actions.

    It’s also funny that many of the “Sam Sullivan bureaucrats” that you refer to have been there through multiple administrations.

    On top of that, if you read Frances’s article, you’ll find that Wendy Stewart, the communications office asked her to call the COPE councilor….or are they both ALSO on the NPA payroll and it’s all one giant conspiracy?

  • spartikus

    And, yes, I am committed to the principles which are necessary to protect whistle blowers.

    I’m pretty sure everyone is committed to the principles of whistle blower protection. Putting the details down on paper is another matter…if memory serves clarity on this issue was problematic for the last NPA government.

    The union wants it embedded in the collective agreement to ensure whistleblower protection for its members.

    The city says it’s a matter of public policy, to be approved at the board level by mayor and council. That way, everyone is covered, including managers, contract workers and unionized staff.

    In eight offers to the union during the dispute, whistleblower protection has not been mentioned.

    -Vancouver Sun, Sep 6, 2007

  • Diane

    Bobbie Bees! Thanks for that posting. I haven’t laughed so hard in a long time.

    By the way, if Gregor objects to what is going on over there, perhaps he should run over to Wendy Stewart’s office and set her straight.

  • West End Gal

    Bobbie Bees, please go back to your kibbutz on Cortes Island. Take all your toys with you, including Gregor’s tricycle and stay away from BBQ pork and too much salt. They are not good for you.

  • Bill McCreery

    @ Spartikus 36.

    I am speaking for myself and the position I will take when elected. I was not privy to the positions on this and other matters of the previous NPA Council members.

  • Gerry McGuire

    Especially 2:50-3:05

  • Chris

    Meggs responds: http://www.geoffmeggs.ca/2010/11/24/a-gag-order-for-city-staffers-at-city-hall-actually-no/

  • Steven Forth

    Great Post. Thank You.
    The citycaucas posturing gets old fast. They seem clueless about actual policy issues and how badly the city was run under Sam Sullivan, but they are doing a useful service in surfacing these issues, and that makes them worth reading. We do need coverage from people like you as well as transparency is critical to democracy.

  • Former Haller

    It’s unfortunate that this has happened. Staff are generally careful not to over step the elected officials.

    The changes brought in by current Council and the new management team are pretty disappointing.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    Pass the popcorn!

    The Courier just posted this letter from the city’s communications director which Frances, Jeff Lee and Charlie Smith all received.

    Most of the paragraphs are a direct cut and paste from Penny’s (un)apology letter Geoff Meggs links to from Chris’ post above… except for this one…

    “…on a personal note, I’ve been the Director of Communications for eight weeks at City Hall and not one of you has called or dropped by to raise these issues with me. I find that discussing things in person is usually far more effective. A phone call and the chance to respond before going live with this particular story would have been very helpful.”

    Yikes! Umm, good luck with that.

  • Bill McCreery

    Here’s a few excerpts from Ms Ballem’s memo on Media Access to City Hall:

    http://www.geoffmeggs.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Memo-to-M-C-Media-Access-1.pdf

    Who is the “Corporate Management Team”? Is this something to do with the City? When did the City of Vancouver become a ‘corporation”?

    “Dear Mayor and Council – you will have seen in the media and on the blogs that there are
    some concerns being expressed by media that they are not permitted to access staff in the
    City. I think it is fair to say that we yesterday on an issue with Frances Bula,
    however I want to reassure you that there is to how staff interact with the
    media.”

    Wonder what ‘drop the ball” refers to? When does “new” start? But, read on….

    “Providing the media with access to staff in order for them to provide technical or background
    information prior to a report going before council is our standard practice. We have clarified
    with the media that it is not appropriate for staff to be interviewed for regarding
    a report before the council meeting. As staff we are very clear on the need not to pre-empt
    council debate and discussion. Furthermore, we try and ensure staff are available at the time
    of the council meeting once council has debated the issue and given direction. That’s the time
    when staff can be quoted. Clearly there was some lack of clarity on our end on this yesterday
    and for that I apologize.”

    So, let’s try to figure this out. Staff can talk to the media before Council decides but they can’t say anything about the report? They can talk about the report but can’t be quoted? They can talk sort of before Council but can really talk after Council but only within the parameters permitted by the “corporate communications”…… This is drivel!

    “As a matter of procedure, we do ask staff to direct any media requests to Communications
    before engaging with media. This applies to all levels of staff including myself…..

    “As staff we are very clear on the need not to pre-empt council debate and discussion. Furthermore, we try and ensure staff are available at the time of the council meeting once council has debated the issue and given direction. That’s the time when staff can be quoted.”

    This confirms the media and the public do not have an opportunity talk to staff until a Council decision has been made. How does that support public discourse on the particular item?

    “….based on the amount of press issues our issues are getting and the frequent quotes and background information which has been clearly provided by staff, I think it is safe to say that we appear to be working hard to provide a good level of service to our colleagues in the media…”.

    Who is “our”? City? Council? Vision? staff? How can staff “clearly” provide “background info” if they can’t talk to the media? Why are they just “‘appearing’ to be working hard”? Surely staff always work hard.

    Is all this getting any clearer?

  • Jason King

    In other words, “this was all a big misunderstanding….although things remain exactly as Frances reported in her article.”

    SPIN SPIN SPIN…..”we don’t believe in limited access to information, we simply believe that access to information should be limited”.

  • Bill McCreery

    Re: above: 1st 2 paragraphs should read::

    “Dear Mayor and Council – you will have seen in the media and on the blogs that there are
    some concerns being expressed by media that they are not permitted to access staff in the City. I think it is fair to say that we dropped the ball yesterday on an issue with Frances Bula, however I want to reassure you that there is no new approach to how staff interact with the media.

    Providing the media with access to staff in order for them to provide technical or background information prior to a report going before council is our standard practice. We have clarified with the media that it is not appropriate for staff to be interviewed for attribution regarding a report before the council meeting. As staff we are very clear on the need not to pre-empt council debate and discussion. Furthermore, we try and ensure staff are available at the time of the council meeting once council has debated the issue and given direction. That’s the time when staff can be quoted. Clearly there was some lack of clarity on our end on this yesterday and for that I apologize.”

    A couple of words got removed because I was trying to highlight them.

  • Diane

    So, since the two memos (Penny’s and Marci’s) are almost verbatim, who do you actually wrote it? (They both make it sound like it’s from them personally). Did they think that no one would see both at the same time?

  • Mark Allerton

    @Bill #45

    “When did the City of Vancouver become a ‘corporation””

    Ever since it was incorporated, I imagine. 1886 according to the City’s website. You should probably read up in this before you run for council.

  • Mark Allerton

    “read up *on*”

    Sorry, this always happens when I’m being a smartass.