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What data is it really that we’re looking for in Vancouver’s housing market?

November 4th, 2015 · 30 Comments

It’s been a remarkable couple of days this week, for those who are interested in the hot topic of Vancouver housing and how much foreign money is flowing into it.

A study by UBC adjunct prof and planner Andy Yan was the latest to set off the fireworks, with his stats on 172 sales in the Point Grey area of town during six months last fall and winter. He looked at buyers with non-Anglicized names, the stated occupations of buyers on land titles, and whether they had mortgages.

There’s been a frenzy of debate about whether this was racist (with some opining that because Andy is Chinese, it couldn’t possibly be) or the clincher stats needed to understand what is happening with real estate in this crazy town or what.

I did a story for the Globe on some of the different opinions out there, with former NDP cabinet minister Darlene Marzari saying she welcomes the information with hard numbers and UBC law prof Margot Young talking about the need for more focus on the actual problem (global capital) instead of ethnicity.

And UBC prof David Ley, who has done the most work on trying to understand this phenomenon since it first started to appear in the 1980s, said he also worries that the debate over nationality of money is obscuring the essential problem: the way the Canadian and B.C. governments crafted policy in the ’80s that opened the door for wealthy people from around the world to park their money here, with programs designed to allow them to avoid taxes and with no requirement that they participate fully in Canadian life, taxes, and the social system.

The heart of this debate is about what information we think we need to have to understand this issue and to push for policy changes.

It seems to me that people in this city care about three essentials.

  1. What impact is global capital having on Vancouver’s property market as a whole? How much is it increasing housing prices overall, making the city unaffordable for the people working in businesses and raising families here?
  2. What impact is global capital having on individual neighbourhoods, because of houses being left vacant, houses that represent the history of the city being demolished, and the sense of community being eroded?
  3. What federal or provincial policies are facilitating destructive global capital?

Unfortunately, Andy’s study from this week didn’t really answer the key questions. I know he’s got some other good work on the way that tries to tackle some of these questions. And his study Monday was interesting in its documentation of the fact that 82 per cent of the buyers of these expensive homes on the west side got mortgages, i.e. no bags of cash.

But what else did we learn and what is missing?

We learned that 66 per cent of the buyers of those expensive west-side homes had non-Anglicized Chinese names. We learned that 32 per cent of the purchases (52 homes) had “homemaker” on the land title and six per cent (8 homes) had students listed. I can’t find anything on Andy’s published study to indicate whether all those homemaker and student homes were among the Chinese-name group or whether some were Chinese and others were not.

What we didn’t learn: We don’t know if they were foreign investors, temporary residents, permanent resident, non-resident dads parking their wives and children here, or families who moved here wanting desperately to get out of China with its smog and suffocating education system — families who are fully planning to create a new life rooted in Vancouver. If I may remind people, it’s possible there are still some of them.

We didn’t learn how many homes that were purchased are sitting vacant or have been demolished and are being rebuilt and how many are being occupied by people trying to integrate into a new life.

We learned nothing about whether capital is being parked, whether there is flipping going on, what role speculation is playing, how many houses are being bought by someone who continues to work in China as a non-resident while leaving family here.

(One story that at least tried to get at part of that recently was Kathy Tomlinson’s in the Globe, where, in part of the story, she looked at the sales histories of more than 200 properties and showed which ones had changed hands rapidly and how the prices had increased.)

What we got was a small slice of sales history in one part of town that said pretty much what we’ve heard elsewhere for the last couple of years: People with Chinese names are buying property on the west side.

Andy did try to qualify his study with all kinds of caveats about what his data meant.

As he wrote: “The purpose of this study is not to necessarily solely focus on a single ethnic group, but in understanding how residential real estate might be consumed in the City of Vancouver with a focus on the enabling financial practices and structures in Canada.”

But that definitely got lost in the shuffle, especially because of the exclusive focus on the non-Anglicized Chinese names. It would be interesting if someone at least glanced at the Korean or other immigrant buyers on the west side, who are showing up as a small but steady stream.

Calling the study racist is really a stretch. But there are studies that seem to encourage conversations that are more about race (easy to ignite in this city with its long history of anti-Chinese sentiments) and other studies that seem to encourage conversations that are more about the role of global capital and government policy. It would be good to see academics discuss how to ensure the latter, if that’s really what they are aiming for.

 

Categories: Uncategorized

  • Voony

    there is an array of presumption that Chinese Mainland capital is distording the local market. The Ian study is just contributing to this array of presumption.

    I notice that most of the people looking for clarity on this issue, are of chinese ethinicty:

    I also notice, that the Bob Ransford of this world are quick to raise the “racist” card as soon as someone question the influx of off-shore capital in the local market

    In reality, Bob Ransford and his friends, including Robertson are part of the problem: they are the ones fueling racism in this city:

    Local from Chinese ethnicity, are probably the first in line to feel the pain to be associated with those “astronaut” coming with “bag of cash” (taking a loan, yes, because transfer money can take time…) and it’s probably a reason why you will see them most active at trying to get data. By taxing of racism any study trying to wade in the problem, Robertson and his developper friends prevent to dispel myth and resentment against a community:

    Their mantra is: “keep the cash going on, tax of racist anyone questioning that!”

    Gregor Robertson is also pathetic in his own way:
    Global capital is a local problem affecting Vancouver: It doesn’t affect Langley and the rest of BC.
    Declining any city-hall responsability in this state of matter, and refusing to take any local action (beside encouraging the denunciation of neighbor ), is in fact more than pathetic.

  • Kirk

    If the real estate industry says foreign investors are pushing up prices, it is not racist. But, if citizens say foreign investors are pushing up prices, it is racist?

    ——-
    Do we need restrictions on foreign ownership?
    Housing prices are climbing steeply once again

    Bob Ransford
    The Vancouver Sun
    16 Apr 2011

    Housing prices are on a steep climb again in Metro Vancouver, causing some to react with suggestions that restrictive measures are needed to cool what they perceive is an overheated market.

    A new wave of overseas investment interest, primarily from mainland China, is creating a frenzy in some parts of the market. Bidding wars are erupting over houses listed for sale in Richmond and on the west side of Vancouver.

    We are experiencing the spillover effect in other parts of the market as well. The lag in supply of new housing to a Metro Vancouver market recovering from an almost halt three years ago, amid the worldwide recession, has prices on the upward climb almost everywhere as demand surges again.

    When the average home costs almost 10 times the median household income, as it does in this region today, it’s tempting to react by suggesting drastic measures be taken to try to temper things.

    Former Vancouver city councillor and business columnist Peter Ladner suggested one of those dramatic measures last week when he said that Vancouver might learn a lesson from China, where restrictions have been implemented limiting non-locals to buying only one property.

    Are we ready for foreign-investment restrictions on our local real estate market? Perhaps it’s worth debating all of the issues that impact housing prices and livability, including this one about imposing restrictions.

    In such a debate, I’ll continue to defend an approach that recognizes the basic realities of supply and demand in managing our housing markets. We need to focus on removing all the barriers that stand in the way of supplying the housing stock that is required to meet the demand caused by people migrating to the area. That means more efficient land use, limiting development restrictions and hidden taxes, speeding up development approval processes and embracing new housing and urban design ideas.

    Some will argue that regardless of how much supply you put on the market, if foreign investors want to park their money in our housing market, homes will sit empty as offshore buyers bid up prices on properties that are little more than commodities for them.

    It’s an argument that is difficult to counter. However, we also need to look at what impact investment trends have over the long term. Waves of foreign real estate investment have shaped our city and region since the earliest days of European settlement.

    A gold rush that attracted people from around the world had settlers staking out properties in the small townsites on the shores of the Fraser River and Burrard Inlet in the 1860s. Property speculation around the transcontinental railway’s arrival in Vancouver in the later years of the 19th century created a real city that is now Vancouver. The return of veterans from a world war created a frenzy for new homes in the neighbourhoods that are now the first-ring suburbs of Vancouver in the early 1950s.

    If we’re looking for one lesson around the impact of foreign real estate investment worth studying, perhaps the best one is the first wave of Asian investment that was sparked by the sale of the former Expo 86 site to Hong Kong billionaire Li Ka-shing in 1988. The redevelopment of the vacant site on the north shore of False Creek by Li’s Concord Pacific not only created a new template for the rebirth of Vancouver’s downtown, it also put Vancouver on the radar screen of foreign investors.

    Many of the condos that Concord developed were sold to foreigners, both those who immigrated here and those who simply invested their money in Vancouver’s real estate market. More foreigners followed, from all parts of the world, making Vancouver an international city from a lifestyle and a business point of view.

    The sale of the Expo lands to a foreign developer was a controversial one. Some might recall that a local consortium tried to put forward a bid for the government-owned lands that would have included development of a Disney-like theme park on the downtown’s fringe, along with some housing. Their financial capability would have likely meant a much slower redevelopment of what we fondly today call “Yaletown” and a much different redevelopment.

    Had the provincial government heeded the warnings of those who cautioned against a massive foreign investment in Vancouver’s downtown property market, we would see a much different Vancouver today. It would certainly be one much less multicultural. It would also probably be one with a much less diversified economy and a less sophisticated urbanism. It would also likely be a city less vibrant, more provincial and with a slower pace. Perhaps some would welcome that today.

    Given the realities of globalism, whether or not you like the trend, Vancouver and our province would be a much different place if we erected walls around us. Closing the door on foreign investors who want to invest in our real estate market will change the future of this place. Will it change it for the better or for the worse? This is certainly worth debating.

    Bob Ransford is a public affairs consultant with COUNTERPOINT Communications Inc. He is a former real estate developer who specializes in urban land use issues. Email: ransford@ counterpoint.ca

    Credit: Bob Ransford; Vancouver Sun

  • Richard Wittstock

    The “affordability” issue as it relates to single-family detached homes, to me, is really a question of expectation vs. reality. Many people here have an expectation that they should be able to afford a single-family home, and they are upset that they can’t. I don’t know that that is really a problem that we can really do much about. If the market drops 10%-20%, even 30%, is that going to make a difference? Are a whole bunch of people who can’t afford a $2,000,000 house going to be able to afford it at $1,500,000? And if that is the difference for them, why don’t they just move 10 blocks east? But they’d better do it quickly, because if interest rates move up 0.5% that will erase any savings pretty quickly.

    My point is that I think people have to realize that there is no magic bullet here and looking for a scapegoat (whether it’s foreigners, the real estate industry, or policymakers) is not a productive use of time. What we CAN control is the type and quantity of housing that we are supplying in the City. The 3,000 sq.ft. detached house on a 4,000 sq.ft. lot 15 minutes away from the core of a clean, safe, wealthy major urban centre with mountains and the ocean at your doorstep is always going to be a very expensive proposition. And it’s only going to get more expensive as our population adds another million people over the next 20-30 years. Vancouver real estate values have increased at a rate of close to 10% per year for the entire history of the city (going back 100 years), and I have no reason to believe that that is likely to moderate going forward.

    What we need to do is recognize that the single-family dwelling is not going to be the typical form of family housing for the future, and that – much like in mature high-density European cities – the future is in row houses, townhouses and apartments. Griping about it isn’t going to solve anything. We can’t make more land. We can, however make much more efficient use of what land we do have.
    Markets are going to do what markets are going to do. What we are presently experiencing is a wave of well-heeled immigration, much like we saw in the 80s and 90s. The $ values just seem to be a lot bigger now. The rich are simply much richer now. Not much can be done about this. Compounding this, we are seeing strong positive in-migration provincially, as people are moving here from Alberta and Ontario for better job prospects and lifestyle. So we’ve seen a big run-up in values over the past 3 years or so. But if and when this wave subsides, we will see a leveling-off or maybe a reversal of price growth. But at the end of the day, the price level is the price level and there’s nothing a government can do about it. If prices are bid up artificially due to speculative activity (I don’t believe that they are), then when the speculation stops they can revert back down very quickly.

    Instead of griping that you #donthave1million, I would say to my kids, “then you’d better get to work!” A defeatist attitude isn’t going to get you anywhere in life. Real estate prices are what they are. It’s like the weather, complaining about it isn’t going to change it. What we can control is (1) our own personal wealth and success, (2) our expectations, or (3) the type of housing that our regulators are allowing homebuilders to supply. So I would show up at public hearings and open houses and ENCOURAGE denser development of family-friendly housing. The NIMBYs are standing in the way of housing affordability. It is self-serving and enhances their property values but doesn’t help the younger generation.

  • Silly Season

    Andy can be absolutely credited for having started the ball rolling on the whole question of what’s happening in real estate here—and getting us all to think about how it affects our whole community.

    Your questions are amongst the right ones, Frances. Now, everyone has to bring data and ‘doing’ together.

  • Silly Season

    Hey Richard,

    I’m all for pulling up bootstraps, taking cold showers, and walking 15 miles to school each way, too.

    But your comments are as patronizing to this conversation as they could possibly get. Let’s apply your concept of personal spit ‘n polish and ‘ideal’ of a complete government hands-off approach, to that of medical care.

    Wanna pay for all of your next hernia operation? You should—because you can afford it! How about education? Worth it to you as someone who has likely already gone through a lifetime of taking advantage of the big government programs that backstopped your education or helped you up that property ladder faster because homes were within the 30% income-to-home cost ratio we have always believed was a sustainable norm in order to build diverse socio-economic communities?

    I have no doubt that you are a hard worker and yes, you should certainly enjoy the fruits of all your labours. But face it–this market, while it may be an anomoly as you have stated, was not the market you made your way through. yes, it may level off or even drop, sometime. But we cannot predict that future—we can only work with the alarming pricing we see now. Andtelling families–and this isn’t sentiment, it’s sociology–that they should shut up and learn to live in 750 sq feet or get the hell out of Dodge—is just asking for a city that has neither heart nor soul.

    No one ‘needs’ a single family property, of course. But your assumption that this is what a younger gen has called for shows your own lack of data mining.

    Where I do agree with you—more 2+ bedroom forms; townhomes, apartments, etc. are needed. But, again, what guarantee that those will have any basis in reality, price-wise, for the local market?

    Without addressing the stats Andy Yan is working on and without answering the questions that Frances and other raise about how those stats affect something more than pricing, we will continue to live in this terrible state of flux.

  • Richard Wittstock

    I am not advocating a government hands’-off approach to housing. There is definitely a role for the government, in particular as they control housing supply through regulation and also facilitate the construction of non-market housing which is necessary for those whose needs truly can’t be addressed by the private market. I don’t believe that it is valid to compare basic public services like education and health care, to expensive, luxury single-family detached housing.
    I also didn’t say anything about 750 sq.ft. I have been a strong vocal advocate (and a builder) of three-bedroom townhouses in the city. I have yet to find a way to squeeze 3 bedrooms into 750 sq.ft. I believe this is Vancouver’s biggest challenge and its biggest demand-supply imbalance – the provision of 3-bedroom, ground-oriented homes with decent outdoor spaces that work for families at all life stages.
    There are no guarantees in life (death and taxes excepted). It’s not the government’s job to ‘guarantee’ that you can buy a certain property at a certain price or multiple of your income. But we know that townhouses are not homes that are bought as speculative investments or as rental properties, they are overwhelmingly bought by young owner-occupant families. So if our young owner-occupant families can’t afford to buy them, then the market will have to adjust because nobody builds them to keep them unsold. The fact is there is no shortage of demand for townhouses by local people earning local incomes, at prices up to (and in some cases well over) $1,000,000. You may think that’s ridiculously expensive, unfair and has no basis in reality, but that’s a value judgement that is not borne out by the marketplace. As I said, there is no shortage of young families in Vancouver who do find this affordable, acceptable and realistic.
    I don’t have a strong opinion on the overall price levels of housing types in Vancouver; the price it is what it is, and it will be what it will be. I can’t control or influence it, all I can control is how I react to it. It’s as productive to complain about it as it is to complain about our low dollar or the rainy November weather. As long as we remain one of the most immigration-friendly and liveable places in the world, our housing is going to remain dear. That may sound patronizing to you; to me its just a question of being pragmatic, spending my time worrying about things that I can affect and not spending time on things I can’t. All the data analysis in the world is not going to do anything to make Vancouver real estate more affordable. As with everything these days, global macroeconomic forces largely rule the day. Things could change dramatically tomorrow, but it won’t be because of any policy that our government can implement unless they shut off the immigration tap. Calgary’s market was roaring along at a pace not far behind Vancouver’s…until it wasn’t. Global forces.
    I do believe that some phenomena do merit investigation; I’m not pooh-poohing Andy Yan’s research (although I do question whether it is valid to assume that non-Anglicized names have anything to do with citizenship or residency – I don’t see anything that connects the two with any degree of validity). It shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone who is familiar with the area that a whole lot of ethnically Chinese people are buying homes close to UBC and St. George’s. So what? What does that prove? I could’ve told you that by simply looking at the makeup of any elementary classroom in the area.
    However, I do think there is near-universal agreement that if there is a significant proportion of our housing supply that is being kept empty, that that is a problem that needs to be addressed. It’s hard enough to supply our market, that we shouldn’t be compounding the problem by keeping housing from doing its job in the marketplace. This certainly needs to be studied and scrutinized, and if it is a significant problem (Andy’s research debunked that urban myth about Downtown condos, but it is still an open question in the West Side single-family neighbourhoods), then there should be an appropriate policy response. That’s not likely to move the needle with respect to affordability in our region. But it can’t hurt and at least some facts will hopefully put an end to much unhelpful conjecture.
    And while it is hard for new supply to dramatically improve affordability (since no developer plans to sell his product for significantly less than the last guy, unless he has no choice), a well-supplied market is the only insurance against rapid price runups caused by a supply squeeze like we are currently experiencing.
    What I do have a strong opinion about is that our mix of housing is wrong. Given our limited land base and challenging transportation links, our inner city and suburbs need to be much denser in order to achieve the liveable region that we need to be. And that’s where people should be concentrating their efforts if they want to improve affordability in the city.

  • Keith

    I wonder how there can be a lack of data on anything to do with the housing sale or rental market in this city when housing affordability has been a seminal issue for twenty years? I know. Politicians at all three levels of government are so disconnected from the reality of the lives of the majority of their constituents it has never occurred to them to comprehensively study housing affordability.

    This is how you get councillor Kerry Jang, a highly educated and experienced politician choking on his words when asked to define affordable housing, spitting out the response that affordable housing is uh, housing you can afford.

    There is a complete lack of leadership on housing affordability for renters, for families that work for wages and rent and building decent quality non market housing (e.g. coops, Whistler style solutions) because our politicians have no connection with the issues facing working Vancouverites. How big a crisis of affordability of rental and ownership of housing do we need to even study the issue? Apparently the lead will be taken by the Andy Yans of the world because our elected representatives can’t be bothered.

  • Voony

    Probably, many things here are a question of perspective:

    http://www.mikestewart.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/June-2015-Real-Estate-Board-of-Greater-Vancouver-Price-Chart-from-1977.png

    Richard says that “Vancouver real estate values have increased at a rate of close to 10% per year for the entire history of the city”, well may be, but the available data from the REBGV tells a different story. the provided graph is in nominal value. In real value, detached house price have increased at a rate of 1-2% above inflation between 1977 and the begining of 2000. price of townhouse and appat didn’t increased faster than inflation,..

    obviously, things have changed lately, thought not so much for the appt/townhouse segment.

    Today, the average westside SFH appreciate at a rate of $1000/day…
    a full Translink CEO compensation is not enough to keep up with the price increase…

    So I guess it is easy from its house making tax free money at unprecedented rate to say to the young generation, go get a job if you want enjoy the same I have., … which job ?

    Some from their house making tax free money, explain it is now “entitlement” for the new generation to expect to be able to achieve a living style similar to the previous generation (or even people born 10 year sooner): “Life change and we don’t make any more land,..and you don’t work hard enough

    The other side, could have a feeling of unfairness: they are the one not even able to enter the Vancouver Real estate lottery where every ticket is a winning one, just because they are a bit late to the party!

    A comment on the Globe and mail, translates this feeling:

    “Someone should start an ETF or mutual fund that just holds Vancouver residential housing, so the rest of us can get in on this bonanza”

    Of course they could buy townhouse, or appt, but you don’t get the “bonanza” a detached house has to offer. It use to be a step on the ladder of the ultimate SFH ownership goal, but it is increasingly no enough anymore.

    The future is much like in mature high-density European cities – the future is in row houses, townhouses and apartments.

    yes row house, it is the missing link…providing a continuum of housing offer…and the city has apparently no appetite for it (it could make land assembly more difficult for developpers).

    The argument that housing price is fixed by ithe market, and we can’t do anything, is specious:
    there is almost no market more controlled than the real estate one.

    The potential supply is fully controlled by the local governments, the speculative component of the market is also a consequence of local policy (fuzzy zoning,…). The city has lot of instruments to control what is happening on its juridiction:

    * Vancouver could ban the construction of new SFH bigger than 2500sqf, but would allow the division of 50ft lot in two 25 ft lot:
    It is for possible that could lower the entry price of the SFH, without impeding the city tax base growth.

    (sqf land price wise, Vancouver is not more expensive than Toronto, but Toronto has much smaller lot, so a more accessible SFH market)

    There is many other policies the city could try to lower the market entry level, while providing a better continuum in the housing options, but the city has shown zero interest in it, and so far the one playing the blame game is essentially the City Mayor.

    That said, the demand is also controlled in large part by the (senior) governments level: thru CMHC, and other tax rules (PTT, capital gain tax,…),

  • Richard Wittstock

    Yes. If your goal is to get a foothold in the housing market, stop wasting money on rent and start building equity, it has never been more affordable to buy a condo…relatively flat prices over the past 5 years and lower-than-ever mortgage rates. Yet somehow condo developers are the evil ones.

  • Richard Wittstock

    What would be interesting to see would be the average price of all transactions (i.e. combined weighted-average of all 3 lines). Single family dwellings are a smaller percentage of all transactions every year, so the overall average price of all properties transacted would be growing at a far less steep rate.

  • Richard Wittstock

    Missed the comments below the graph. Here’s my response to a couple of the points raised:

    (1) from the graph, looks like the average detached price was about $65,000 in 1977 vs. $1,442,296 in 2015. The compounded rate of increase over this 38-year period is 8.5% per annum. Don’t know how that relates to inflation and don’t really think that’s relevant to my point. I said “close to 10% per year”, well, it depends upon which time period you look at. I’ve done previous analyses going back to the earlier half of the last century that support a rate closer to 10%. It’s meant to be a round number.

    You indicate that prices have only increased slightly higher than the inflation rate from 1977-2000. But if I look at your graph, it appears that in 2000 the average SFD price was $390,000, which appears to be a trough you’ve cherry-picked at the end of a long period of economic stagnation. Do you remember the 90’s? I do. It was ugly. Still, relative to $65,000 in 1977, a compounded average rate of growth of 8.1% is reflected through to the end of the dismal 1990s. This is significantly above the rate of inflation. Since then, through a period of strong economic growth, the rate of increase has been 9.1%. This doesn’t strike me as being all that surprising, abnormal or even newsworthy when you consider the context.

    One thing to point out…any large-timescale graph like this really should be shown as a logarithmic scale. Shame on the REBGV for not publishing it this way. Otherwise the slope on the right hand side of the graph will always look far steeper than on the left hand side, even if the rate of percentage change is constant throughout. This is an important point that I think few understand.

    (2) Since I’m being personally attacked here, here’s my personal experience: I’ve only lived in a single-family house for the past 5 years of my adult life. While it has certainly appreciated in the past 5 years (by 18% over 5 years according to your graph, not exactly winning the lottery), I should also point out that mortgage rates have dropped a full percentage point from when we bought our house. Our young family climbed the property ladder over the past 10 years just like anyone else, from apartment, to townhouse, to a bigger townhouse, to a duplex, and finally to a house, through hard work, frugality, discipline and aggressively paying down our mortgages. By the time our first child was 5, he’d had 4 different addresses.

    So I don’t think I’m being patronizing here. I just don’t think we are living in a time that is that atypical, and if I was 10 years younger, I think my result in 10 years’ time would probably be the exact same. Yes, the past 12 months has seen abnormal growth, but over a longer timescale it’s not that atypical. I don’t think it’s correct at all to say that people are too late to the party now. I don’t think there’s ever been a better time to buy a condo, when over 50% of your mortgage payment can go straight to principal and you can build wealth at an unprecedented rate.

  • Richard Wittstock

    Courtesy my friend John Good:

    This is an excerpt from A Critical Growth Cycle
    for Vancouver, 1900 -1914
    NORBERT MAGDONALD

    “…With the real estate dealers, 1909 has been a banner year in Vancouver.Three years ago it was prophesied that the real estate business had reached its apex and must decline; today prices have doubled and trebled and real estate brokers have probably made more money in 1909 than even in the early days of the great real estate movement about 3 years ago. Five years
    ago lots might have been purchased within the city limits for $50 each; now it would be difficult to secure a single lot anywhere in Vancouver for less than $6oo…”

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    http://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/bcstudies/article/download/769/811

  • Michael

    Richard,

    If you look at the RBC affordability graph, you can easily see that recent years are not normal. It’s never been this bad.

  • Michael

    No thanks. We rent a $950k condo for $2,600/month. Why would we buy when renting is so much cheaper?

  • Michael

    We desperately need data on foreign ownership and empty dwellings. Only then can we make intelligent decisions about how to restore housing affordability.

    Unfortunately, Christy Clark has made it clear she doesn’t want to implement any policy that would hurt homeowner “equity”. And Robertson only seems capable of pointing his finger at the province or warning us not to be racist.

    The fact we are ten years into this bubble, and are still debating what type of data we should start to gather leaves me with zero hope this problem will be solved anytime soon.

  • Richard Wittstock

    Because it’s not…maybe in cash flow terms today, but you are paying 3.3% of the value of the property each year in rent whereas a 5-year mortgage would be at 2.3%. And that would be fixed for five years, whereas your rent will certainly rise. Yes this ignores strata fees and taxes, but it also eliminates the risk of rapidly rising Vancouver rents. Even with your below-market rental, you would be better off owning. The caveat here is – if you don’t plan to stay in that home for long, if you plan to move inside of 5 years, then it probably doesn’t make sense to own because of transaction costs.

  • Michael

    When you include taxes and strata fees, I’m only paying 2.4%. Then add in repairs, special assessments, PTT and closing costs. Buying now is a losing proposition unless you are counting on never-ending appreciation. That is the definition of speculation. I don’t speculate, I invest.

    My rental properties generate 4.5% to 9% returns after accounting for fixed costs. And the appreciation I get on them is just icing on the cake.

  • Richard Wittstock

    The problem with the methodology is that it uses “average” household income (including singles) but it doesn’t compare that against the “average” residence. So a single-family house looks extraordinarily expensive, but that is not what the “average” household lives in in Vancouver. 66% of households in Vancouver CMA are NOT single-family dwellings:

    https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/fogs-spg/Facts-cma-eng.cfm?Lang=eng&GK=CMA&GC=933

    So if you’re going to talk about affordability of single-family dwellings, you should really only be comparing the median SFD costs with the median of the top 34% of household incomes, which was a figure in the region of $125,000 in 2005, higher today. Seems like it is approximately double the median overall income, which would therefore suggest that housing costs (assuming everyone has a 75% LTV mortgage) are not approx. 80%, but really approx. 40% of median income for SFD dwellers.

    See this:

    http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/dp-pd/tbt/Rp-eng.cfm?TABID=2&LANG=E&APATH=3&DETAIL=0&DIM=0&FL=A&FREE=0&GC=0&GK=0&GRP=1&PID=96272&PRID=0&PTYPE=88971,97154&S=0&SHOWALL=0&SUB=0&Temporal=2006&THEME=81&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF=

    The median income for the top 34% would be the 17th percentile. Now I admit that this isn’t 100% valid either, because it assumes that all single-family homes are more expensive than all multi-family homes. We know that that’s not true; there are many townhouses and apartments in Vancouver that are more expensive than single-family homes in Surrey. But it’s a heck of a lot more valid than RBC’s conclusion.

    What’s really embarrassing is that someone like David Ley, who should know better, will trot out this 82% stat at any opportunity, including when I questioned him about how he defines affordability. He lost all credibility with me that day.

    What RBC really needs to do is to compare median household income with the median dwelling, regardless of type. The 82% number that keeps getting bandied about is absolutely meaningless and not helpful to any conversation about affordability in Vancouver.

  • Richard Wittstock

    Ok, well at least you’ve done the math and based your decision on that; that’s a lot more than most do. I disagree with your conclusion but to each their own. To me, owning your principal residence should be a priority (ahead of rental properties, although I am a huge fan of rental properties) due to security of tenure for your family and tax-free cap gain, among other things.

  • Michael

    You’re trying to manipulate the data to fit your argument. RBCs methodology has been consistent for decades. It’s only been the last 10 years that things have gone crazy, and there was no dramatic shift in dwelling preference recently.

    If RBC changed their methodology as you suggest, it would simply make previous decades look ridiculously cheap. They weren’t.

  • Richard Wittstock

    Not trying to manipulate data at all. Don’t know why you would think that comparing a median dwelling against median household income wouldn’t be more valid than what RBC publishes. Preferences haven’t changed but the makeup of the housing stock changes every year and that is not reflected in RBC’s data set. Over 80% of new supply in Vancouver CMA every year is multi-family units (90% if you net out demolitions), so the proportion of single family units declines a little bit each year.

  • Michael

    The California Association of Realtors did something similar to what you suggest back in 2005. They did it because less than 10% of households could afford the median home, which was down from the long-term average of about 40% of households. They replaced their old index with a “first time homebuyer index”, which compared incomes to only entry-level homes.

    When you redo your methodology because you don’t like what it’s telling you…

    Another Problem with your position is record-low condo affordability. That can’t be explained by disappearing single-family stock, IMO.

  • Richard Wittstock

    But your California example proves my point. I am suggesting a completely objective measure of the median home; this compared with RBC’s subjective “standard condo”, “standard bungalow” and “standard 2-storey”. If you’re only trying to compare across time series, then RBC’s metric is fine. But it doesn’t say anything about the health of the housing market as a whole because it is not representative of the makeup of the market. The median housing form in vancouver cma, a townhouse, isn’t even represented in the study.

  • Richard Wittstock

    The condo affordability metric is worth paying attention to. The fact that a standard 900 SF condo (not sure where or how old this “standard” condo is) consumes 40% of median household income does seem a bit concerning. Not an all time record like you characterize, but certainly elevated. I have emailed the study authors to get more info on their methodology.

    Working backwards, if the median household income is $75,000, 40% of that is $2500/month. Assuming strata fees of $.40/SF ($360), taxes of $170/mo., and utilities of $100/mo., that suggests a mortgage payment of $1,870 per month. At 2.35% fixed for 5 years, that will amortize a $424,488 25-year mortgage. At 75% LTV that’s a $566,000 “standard” 900 SF condo. At $630/SF, that must be one hell of a “standard” condo. On MLS, the median condo sale in the REBGV+FVREB over the past 30 days was $391,450 and the median size was 867 sf. Median $/sf is therefore $451, which seems reasonable. Median age of these MLS sales is 11 years old.

    So in summary, I don’t know what RBC is measuring in their report, if they are suggesting that a standard 900 SF condo in ancouver cma consumes 40% of household income. According to my math, a “standard” 900 SF condo should cost $406,350. A 75% mortgage would be $304,763 and the mortgage payment would be $1343 per month. Add in taxes, strata fees and utilities, and you get $1,973 per month or a much more manageable 32% of average household income.

  • Voony

    Richard, you are not personnaly attacked, I am sorry you feel that. I myself also own a SFH fro less time thean you (with an non englicied chinese name on the property title at that): I was speaking of a general viewpoint of a kind of a generational divide.

    However,

    1/I don’t feel I have cherry picked data either. circa 2000, is well recognized to be the starting point of a “world housing bubble” (that is after the “dot-bubble” crash of 2000, the money then come to the real estate):

    2/ Providing data in “real price” (that is corrected from inflation) is common practice: Doing otherwise doesn’t provide a realsitic picture of housing price evolution.

    inflation in the early 1980s was about 10-12%, that means the wage were increasing in this order year over year: housing price increasing by 10% was hence not big deal.

    People tend effectively to forget that. In fact, for many of the buyer of those time, the house has been “paid” by the inflation. (inflation “erase” debt) –

    So, I infer that once inflation is corrected ,real estate price seems to have been relatively stable on the pretty long period 1977-2000.

    Studies on longer period exist and usually tend to conclude to a remarkable stability of price over long period:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/All.svg/512px-All.svg.png

    (more background on it at http://www.cgedd.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/doc/house-price-index-Paris-and-others-secular_cle7fed11.doc )

    (the “world real estate bubble” is represented in the graph above).

    THat is not overly surprising, as mentioned by the RBC graph presented by Michael, at the end of the chain: the money people can put in housing is limited by their earning,

    I was not in Vancouver in the 1990. However 1987-1990 was time of a real estate bubble bubble in some part of the world, which bursted in 1990;

    I don’t see too much the effect of it on the Vancouver curb (thought you can see a blip)

    However, it got a signifcant effect in Paris, with the index increasing by +50%, then decreased by -30% : The role of foreign investment (it was mainly corporate investment) has been documented as a cause of it (it started to flow in real estate after the Nikkei crash of 1987):

    In France, basically only Paris and may be the French Riviera saw this run up: the rest of France didn’t see anything: foreign investment target, almost in a surgical manner some very specific market/product.

  • Richard Wittstock

    So I heard back from RBC’s senior economist today, they do in fact use the 5-year posted fixed rate in their analysis. Not surprising for the sake of simplicity, but not helpful to the relevance of the study.

    The posted rate is 4.64%, (as compared with the discounted rate that anyone off the street can get at 2.35%), which explains why their index shows a “standard” condo consuming 40% of income when in reality it is 32%. Likewise, this would suggest that the true housing cost with a 75% mortgage for a median household in Vancouver CMA (remember, this includes singles, students living in dorms, etc) for a single-family house is not >80%, but in reality somewhere in the 60%-65% range.

  • Kirk

    Just to point out the obvious, you’re asking for data from a govt that deletes all their emails and correspondence. They won’t even supply data for the Massey tunnel replacement. Housing data is NEVER going to get released from the Liberals.

  • Roger_Kemble

    http://www.theyorkshirelad.ca/CITIES/CITIES.html

  • MB

    Richard, thank you for your eloquent insights. I agree with the thrust of your comments, especially about increasing the types of housing, not just the quantity, specifically ground-oriented rowhouses and townhouses. I would also like to see mortage-helpers incorporated into these forms of housing and apartments and creative contract-based mortgages between singles sharing common spaces in one unit as a springboard upon which one can launch over the affordability issue.

    I suggest that blocking all immigrants from China would only dent the fender of unaffordability. There are just to many other factors at play (market desireability, net internal population increase, supply and demand, etc.) for anyone to suggest otherwise.

  • MB

    Ahhh … that would be TRIPLE deleted. You know, just to make sure every fraction of a byte of embarrassing, controversial and contradictory-to-the-truth data is dead, gone and otherwise vapourised.