Frankenwaldorf (assuming you are not GR in another guise, before we start singing Koombayah, I believe that the current council, all of them Vision and NPA and Green, have behaved abysmally when they unanimously voted to disallow the demolition of the Waldorf for 120 days. It may be political expediency but it is truly offensive when someone in good faith purchases a property and because of a foofooraw by people able to get press attention, get a 120 day freeze and threat of a historic designation after the fact. That is a truly unacceptable way to do things.
That the controversy may generate a discussion of how to create inexpensive (not free) cultural hubs or artists lofts (whatever happened to suffering in garrets a la Boheme) is probably a good thing, even if it will bring it disparate and silly things like the Ridge, Capital 7, etc (when not go back to the loss of the Varsity, whenever it was and should we start the petition now for the Dunbar?)
@Bill McCreery. Density and doing up does not necessarily mean towers. It can mean 2-6 storey as well. Clutches of developers? I suggest that Vision is no more in the clutches of developers than your party, NPA, was. Vision is probably less in my view. City hall, a trainwreck? Spare me.
GR. the more in your cups or your hash you get, the more vulgar and less amusing you become.
And finally, Frankenwolf, I have never agreed with Mira anything and don’t intend to start, except in the extremely narrow sense as that I think the city badly mishandled the Waldorf and I disagree with Sandy Garossino on her position on this. Contrary to the Mira (Breckenridge’s?) of the world, I can disagree with her on this one but still respect the public work she has done.

anybody who thinks pop music is some flavour of “culture” is kidding themselves and trying to put one over on everyone else. Anyone who is eager to be a passive consumer of pop “culture” is suffering from an extreme lack of imagination. Any chimpanzee can crank out a rock song in half an hour while baked. It’s really not that hard and it shows.
Spend a year or two studying music and practicing on an instrument and you can produce and enjoy some of the world’s greatest music composed by undisputed geniuses. In other words, do it yourself.

Thought of The Evening

“Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses… or in frugal translation… if you’d kept your mouth shut we might have thought you were clever”

Needles to say that the Latin phrase is for… my dear friend… Waltyss.
Just when I was about to admit that all his past posts re. Waldorf & Sandy Garossino are right on the money, considering, he comes up with yet another poor ‘hash’ calling.
Look, I left a message for you regarding this ‘hash’ thingy, a few posts back… and just by chance, I read your reply, which was so obscene and nasty that Frances removed it… for your benefit.
No, I’m not signing in as Frankenwaldorf!, when I have something to say I say it as GR,
why would I do it under a different name? Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KtAgAMzaeg

One last question for you, Comrade Waltyss… How’s your Russian?

Frankenwaldorf! …
No pun intended, ok?

bablu1 #45
Funny. I really liked that. You really managed to do a Carry Grant speaking German in Notorius. Cheers

Maude #50
I read the article the first time. No need for me to do it again. That was not a hyperbole, I wouldn’t use hyperbole to describe pure unadulterated reality. ‘Ruin pubs’ drinking are tourist traps, they do not represent local culture, unless you think that Absolute Vodka is a Latvian writer. Period. BTW, two years equals a lifetime on the streets of Budapest a city in struggle, in the middle of a social, economical, political turmoil, a place where antisemitism is rampant .
Now, drink up and thank God that…

We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.

@Dan Cooper 49
“I challenge anyone to suggest where a woman in her early 30s can pray at 10:00am on Sunday. Please.”

I challenge you to make me care whether you can go praying at that time, the more so if you expect me (through the City) to somehow subsidize the venue.”

I just changed a few words of your statement to show how the City does subsidize “venues”. Why should I care enough to subsidize religious institutions through tax breaks? In my opninion, some are nothing more than hate peddlars. Some take up valuable land drawing far smaller crowds than the Ridge or the Waldorf.

I got this guys….. http://youtu.be/lrJz9Dh5MsM

“The Waldorf team were influencers of a rare kind. They were trusted, not only by their large and enthusiastic audience but by the broader cultural media to bring excitement and excellence to Vancouver.”

But, sadly, they could not be trusted by their landlord and (from what I’ve read) to meet their contractual obligations. Or to refrain from going behind the landlord’s back to negotiate for the purchase and development of the landlord’s property. If only.

But here’s an idea. If support for these people is so broad, why not ask all these supporters donate their money to pay the unpaid rent, fulfill all other contractual obligations and secure future rent? I bet that would secure them a new, longer term lease.

No? Not willing to put up or raise funds to secure this “treasure”?

“Irrespective of any lease arrears, there’s little doubt that this sale was just an outstanding bargain for the seller, who was not only made whole by the deal, but able to turn a tidy profit at the expense of his tenants?”

I certainly hope so.

“It will remain a mystery why he gave such short shrift to those tenants when they brought a well-resourced sympathetic buyer to meet with him.”

Short shrift? Really? How much unpaid rent did the landlord forgive again?

Why are you so willing to suggest that the landlord should financially support these people when you and their other supporters are unwilling to do so?

Perhaps if there was a downtown casino/hotel the City would have more money to help the arts? 😉

Maude writes, “It is well known that anyone interested in operating a live music venue in the CoV is up against some very onerous, unnecessary permit requirements and building code upgrades. It is next to impossible.”

True.

Southern Rooster Boy writes, “Anybody who thinks pop music is some flavour of “culture” is kidding themselves and trying to put one over on everyone else.”

My father has an interesting take on this question. Waaay back in the ’60s he came out of the conservatory and into a small town, high school music teaching job. At some point during the year he ended up chaperoning a school dance, where a rock band from a nearby larger city had been hired to play. Much to his surprise and against his biases he found that – based on his own criteria and those of “the academy” – the musicians were, indeed, clearly capable professionals, playing real music.

Well, that’s the oh very serious response. Actually, it’s more to the point to just say, “Hah, you’re funny!”

Everyman is perturbed about churches being subsidized.

And I’m not arguing with him, at least on the topic of religion and taxes.

On the other hand, just to be clear, I am not against – in fact am in favour of – subsidizing various venues/organizations/events for all kinds of reasons. I think it’s completely appropriate, for example, to support the arts (including everything from pop to barbershop to hip hop to opera…and beyond), and likewise to support or provide all-night drop in services/safe places for vulnerable people such as the homeless, sex workers, and at-risk youth.

1:00 a.m. dancing and drinking for middle-class 30 somethings, or places to pray and proselytize? Not so much. But many other things? Certainly.

Was is particularly sad about your post, Sandy, is the attempt to blame the landlord with no fault in your flakey heros acknowledged whatsoever.
The landlord forgave over $300,000 in rent. This is an incredible subsidy. What has your list of hipster/artists/Otherwise subsidized folks contributed? Anything except their voice? Certainly have no heard.
The landlord sold the property so as to maximize the family’s profit. Good on them. They had done much more than their fair share for the hipsters and your attempt to make them the villains is pathetic. They have no obligation whatsoever to sell or even consider selling to purchasers pre-approved by the tenant.
And one more thing, no-one (well, no-one except Foghorn Leghorn) is denigrating their artistic, hipster cool credentials. Folks are questioning their business acumen and whether the city should subsidize them or worse and what the city appears to be doing, force someone else to subsidize them. The response of most people on this thread or elsewhere is a hearty “No!”.

This is the other part of the hipster mantra regarding you’re-totally-uncool-if-you-haven’t-heard-of-them folks like the mysterious Grimes: “No one’s heard of them here, but they’re huge in ___”. Usually it’s “Japan”, although in these cybernetic days it could as easily be “Terre Haute, Indiana”.

I’ve got my own Grimesian scale of coolness. Here’s another Grimes, who to me personally is of immensely greater significance than Waldorf Grimes, and if you can name an album or two he played on, you can be admitted (temporarily, there will be other tests) to my exalted inner circle: http://henrygrimes.com/.

This whole discussion is all so bloody subjective.

Well said Sandy Garossino @ #60.

For those of you who have it in for Vision obviously you did not spent a lifetime watching the NPA.

The WCT tried to put together a multi-dimensional media culture centre that may not be unique in the world but it sure as hell was unique to Vancouver. There was a multi-dimensional audience too, that given time, would have supported the Waldorf venture.

“Experienced businesspeople and entrepreneurs reading here know that it is not at all uncommon for a new startup to take 2 years or more to turn profitable, especially when brand awareness is a key component of success.” . . . of course!

As it is the current Bula-crowd seems to be infested with a one-movie-one-tub-o’-pop-corn-and-pin-bowls-after state od mind: sorta like Dunbar 1960’s.

Waltyss, passim, you disappoint me!

Wow, Roger Kemble @71 have joined forces with the Garossinos and the ‘hipsters’ world. Why would anyone listen to you on this subject, Roger? Because you frequented the place lately and drank on credit? Like everyone else there, hence the money ‘misunderstandings?
Sandy, what’s with that list? Was it necessary? Look, I could put my name on that. So? Some are joining the most sought after limelight attention, like yourself? I see that Mira @68 beat me to the punch or I would have asked you the same question. If you leave a taxicab and not pay the fee does not that qualify as ‘theft’? Or the taxi driver must take it upon himself because the hipster in the back seat doesn’t care about money, and pay the fare himself?
Interesting philosophy you have when it comes to ‘other people’s’ money, in this case, thanks to Vision Vancouver and Gregor Robertson, taxpayer’s money.
I say no to subsidizing a bunch of arrogant, impertinent jerks like those Waldorf Prodoofuses.
As for Grimes… good you brought that up, a simple search on twitter and this is what your little treasure wrote:

“9 Jan
Grimes Grimes ‏@Grimezsz
wow vancouver is so fucked if they shut down the waldorf. fuck this city. you’ve destroyed nearly every piece of culture that you had ”
https://twitter.com/Grimezsz/status/289242610449649664

That’s class Sandy, it makes the inner artist come out!
And two days later:

“11 Jan
Grimes Grimes ‏@Grimezsz
now that i have over 100K followers my powers to troll have reached a new level”

Which explains it!
Any comments?

@Chris #70:

I’ve written and recorded lots of bad songs and I’m happy to send one along to you, if you like. In fact, I’m just finishing up one this weekend (though it doesn’t use those three chords, exactly). Will mp3 be ok?

Holy Crap…..
Sandy is Grimes’ mommy.
Now her odd-bias on this one makes more sense.

And the tacky plug without mention you are mommy dearest… ewwwwww

If you were on council, Sandy, would you have recused yourself.

@RogerKemble

I respect the fact that @waltyss takes the analytical versus the lyrical viewpoint here. There has already been much muddying of the waters between private business, the property rights of an individual, and culture. Sometime—and especially when seemingly not at all well planned, all those twain cannot possibly meet. They are all separate issues, that have been clumsily strung together to try to make a myriad of confused (and confusing) arguments.

There is nothing to show us that the Waldorf Production guys were any closer to self sustainablity now than they were before. To claim otherwise is just gulding an already over-gilded lily. 2 years to make a business work?! Where the hell did that number come from? The fact that RBC loaned these guys ome money only means that they will be first in line to claim their creditor due, if they are owed any money.

Having been in the food and bev business myself (though not in the new paradigm that includes, gulp, “cultural incubation”) I can tell you that just making that end work is a long, hard haul. This city nightlifers-as many others– are quite fickle as to what is ‘in” and what is “out”. What’s in today is outre tomorrow.

You need sharp operators, who not only undertand their customer but who have a sharp eye for the bottom line. This sounds like a very simple case of too much up front money put into “the feel” of the place, without due consideration of other factors (like expenses and revenues). Add to this the fact that there is likely cash loss involved (a sad fact of restaurant/pub life) and people not paying for rooms (noble to put artists up for nothing, but something has to pay for the space) and you run into cash flow problems soon enough.

The operators couldn’t seem to explain exactly what kind of business they were running–whether they were a for profit–or a non-profit—enterprise. That to me is the fatal flaw in all this. They ran out of money, time, and ultimately, their petulance cost them the business at this particular site. I would say this was a trifecta of disasterous business decisions. The reputational loss may also affect them in the future a they look for a new site.

Now, I read that the City has a new operator for a significant amount of new artist space (on 1st?). Art is important. Creativity is important. The City should provide SOME budget for it–and then the operator must damn well be responsible for making it work—however that has been defined.

Now, if someone who has a private enterprise—and especially one that wants to profit in any way from sponoring the arts– wants to support the arts, great. Just know that it is their responsibility to pay for it.

@Chris Keam #79:

Heh. I’m not that quick. The one I’m finishing up probably took an hour or two, on and off.

@Frankenwaldorf! // Jan 17, 2013 at 2:40 pm

I’ll get my guitar and bellbottoms out of storage for the sing along……….in the meantime……..I’m quite put off by the current operators of the Waldorf. The more I read about them, the more I would like to see them vacate the property. They seem like a bunch of whiny guys in my eyes. And what is up with charging $20.00 to get in this weekend? The Waldorf needs managers with character, grace and style………This city needs the same. 🙂

@ A Dave 77.

“As Trish French notes, however, Council doesn’t need to do any of this, they just need to direct the Planning Department to respect the zoning by-laws already in place: something that a Council with spine could have done in the case of the Rize (and many other developments that caused community outrage) too.”

Well said. That’s one of the hearts of this matter. Why is Council allowed to continually ignore Council approved by-laws and policies to respond to the whim of the day?

“If I can do it, anyone can.”

That’s a dumb generalization Ian and certainly doesn’t apply to the programming I’ve experienced the few times I’ve been to the Waldorf, which, as a rule, has been more accomplished than the work of non-professionals.

@Chris Keam #86:

I think you’re now shifting the goal posts around. My proposition is that it’s easy to write pop music (although difficult to write good pop music).

You challenged me to come up with a song.

I said ok and offered to send you one I was just finishing.

You declined my offer, but maintained your position that writing “half decent” songs was difficult and cited a lack of real world examples. (Ironic, given my offer to provide you with one, but whatever.)

I maintained my position that it isn’t difficult to write “half decent” songs and suggested that, if I could do it, anyone could.

Now you’re discussing programming at the Waldorf and how its more accomplished than the work of non-professionals? That’s a bit of a non-sequitur in the context of our discussion. Even if your statement is correct concerning the quality of programming at the Waldorf (and I don’t suggest it isn’t), it in no way detracts from my assertion that its not difficult to write pop songs.

Ian:

Actually you said it’s easy to write bad songs. No argument there. And then you changed the deal, wouldn’t use the chords I asked for. So those goal posts moved too. No worries. We’re just mucking about. I get that.

The original premise was that a stoned chimp can write a rock song in half an hour. I called b.s. and stick by my position.

I think the programming at the Waldorf is relevant to the discussion in that it’s the genesis of the conversation. Mr Leghorn was also equating the programming there with his stoned-simian product unless I’m mistaken.

The bottom line is that making music isn’t just a matter of a year or two of training, or knowledge of three chords. Apparently Leghorn’s training and experience wasn’t even enough to make any money. Or maybe he/she just sucked. Who knows? The reality is that creating original music (such as that peformed at the Waldorf) is challenging if you want to produce something original. Even more difficult to get up on stage and put it out there for arm-chair Lennon and MacCartney’s to render judgement that it’s easy, and very difficult to build an audience.

Waldorf Productions to move to Eastern Townships and learn French?
Not likely
http://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/arcade-fire-puts-church-studio-up-for-sale-1.1120777

@Chris Keam #90:

“Actually you said it’s easy to write bad songs”

Actually, I said “Any idiot with three chords can write a pop song. Writing a good pop song is an entirely different matter.” I stand by that. I didn’t say that I would do so with any particular chords. The thrust of my comment, of course, was that it wasn’t difficult to write pop music. And it really isn’t.

“The original premise was that a stoned chimp can write a rock song in half an hour. I called b.s. and stick by my position.”

Not my premise. However, if the statement is taken literally, then I am forced to agree with you. It is indeed unlikely that a real stoned chimpanzee could write pop music. I will concede that.

“I think the programming at the Waldorf is relevant to the discussion in that it’s the genesis of the conversation.”

It may well be. But it remains unrelated to the point we were discussing.

“Mr Leghorn was also equating the programming there with his stoned-simian product unless I’m mistaken.”

I can’t speak for him.

“The bottom line is that making music isn’t just a matter of a year or two of training, or knowledge of three chords.”

Indeed. I would argue that neither are really necessary, though I would agree both would help.

“The reality is that creating original music (such as that peformed at the Waldorf) is challenging if you want to produce something original. ”

I can’t speak to what is being performed at the Waldorf, but I don’t think it’s anywhere near as hard as you think it is to create original music. I don’t know if you have any musical training, but I think you think it’s a lot more complicated or esoteric than it really is.

“Even more difficult to get up on stage and put it out there for arm-chair Lennon and MacCartney’s to render judgement that it’s easy, and very difficult to build an audience.”

Those, of course, are quite different issues, unrelated to the point I was making.

Q. How to you get a bass player off your porch?
A. Pay for the pizza.

It’s hilarious watching this thread by a lot of people who look like they are pretty sick of Vision but obviously don’t have a clue how to beat them. You should get George Steinbrenner to run your political team. Oh wait, you did (Armstrong/MacDonald).

You’re a bunch of out of touch old fogeys. Last I checked, the OFP (Old Fogey Party) got laughed off the stage in their chicken suits.

Anybody who wanted to beat Vision would be high-tailing it over to the Waldorf sendoff party and making friends there. Because this disaster is on Vision’s hands and their base is mad as a hornet’s nest.

Not that you’d understand political opportunity if you tripped over it. In your chicken suit.

Every time you hate on things like the Waldorf you alienate a ton of smart young working taxpayers in this town. People in the film industry, the tech and gaming industry, the publishing industry, and the tourism and service industry. Young people who pay their bills and pay their rent and wanted the Waldorf to have a chance and loved what it was doing.

If you want Vision to be re-elected, keep this thread going exactly like you are.