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Vision + Green councillors approve new Point Grey/Kits “seaside greenway” with many recommendations to continue making improvements

July 30th, 2013 · 340 Comments

Well, after five days and 134 speakers, by my count, city council approved the plan for the Seaside Greenway bike route, parks, pedestrian improvements through Point Grey and Kits. About 30 people came out to hear the final result. I thought they were all opponents, until a few people started hugging each other and congratulating advocates like Pam McColl.

I’m sure you have lots of opinions on the whole thing. Here’s my story, written as fast as I could type last night. More to come in the Globe in days to come.

Here’s a link to a storify of my and others’ tweets for the night, for those who like the blow by blow.

 

Categories: Uncategorized

  • Everyman

    I’m just posting here to take this thread over 300. Is that a record Frances? ; )

  • Voony

    300 !

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    I’m guessing Frances is away & not really paying attention. But when she’s back, there are usually new commenters, or sometimes posts with multiple links, waiting in moderation for her to approve.

    When she does, those new prior posts will bump up and ripple the post number count that follows. Then won’t you feel silly Monsieur ou Madame 300. 🙂

  • waltyss

    teririch @298. Glad you clarified. However, descriptively, your post had validity only from the alley between W3 and W4 to W. 4. Old sidewalk next to an empty lot. I guess a half block of bad sidewalk is reason to cancel the bike path programme. Whatever!
    Better get back to photographing the comings and goings at the mayor’s house.

  • jenables

    Walty ss, relax. My suggestion is you try pushing someone in a wheelchair in the two areas we have discussed. My friend was here for a couple of weeks and was using her perfectly serviceable smaller chair. she does have a larger one that probably would have handled a little better, but she brought the small one as it’s much much easier for me to get in and out of my car. The larger one, with its larger weight would have probably still been terrifying due to the grade alone, but when you hit all the cracks and bumps it feels like the person will get pitched out. It would be almost impossible in a wheelchair by yourself I think. There are certain things such as the grade that can’t realistically be changed, but the sidewalks actually really should be in good repair, for everyone’s sake, especially in a business district with heavy use. Maybe once you try doing this, you can understand how it is yet another obstacle for the disabled, and won’t be offended by the suggestion that they be repaired.

  • Richard

    @teririch

    311

  • teririch

    @Richard #304

    I am still waiting for #311 to remove the couch that was dumped in our alley and has been sitting there for roughly 5 months now……

  • brilliant

    @teririch phone them again and harangue them. Usually they’re.pretty good about it.

  • waltyss

    Summer madness has set in and strange number codes are being tossed around.
    jenables @303: It would be great if every sidewalk in the city were perfectly flat and accessible to every person in a wheelchair regardless of the strength of their attendant.
    However, that is simply not real life. To achieve that in any city (and by comparison Vancouver has pretty good sidewalks, partly because we mostly do not have to contend with the upheavals of winter. In my neighbourhood there are sidewalks dating to 1934, which I think is pretty good.)
    The City engineering department as mentionned has sidewalks on a plan and if a particular sidewalk is really bad can probably be persuaded to up that sidewalk. In this case, the fact that it borders an empty lot which will no doubt soon be built on means that any new sidewalk put in will probably be destroyed by the construction. In any event, the main obstacle in that location is the grade fo the slope and the fact that there are trees whose roots are lifting up the sidewalk.
    My issue with teririch’s comments was not that our sidewalks should not be improved where they can be but with her spurious suggestion that somehow sidewalks are being neglected because of bikelanes, which is of course nonsense.

  • jenables

    Ahh, waltyss. If I call another pub night, will you come to this one? It would be so much easier to have this conversation in person.

  • jenables

    Teri- tenants moving out used to constantly leave their sofas, mattresses, etc in the alley behind my old work. The cleaning guy caught the landlady across the way dragging these objects over to our side red handed.. all we could do was drag them back, but sometimes we had to pay for the removal! She once tried to accuse US of leaving the mattress, when she knew it was from one of her tenants! What hairsalon throws out mattresses?! Eww..

  • teririch

    @jenables #309:

    Oh, I know.

    We have now implemented a $100 fee (refundable) attached to renters that will be used if they dump their mattresses etc in the back – it costs at least that to get junk removal services to collect them.

    I have caught people in neighboring houses dragging junk to where our dumpster sits and leaving it there (I mean, really! )

    As for the sofa – tis down the alley a bit – another casualty of the ‘move out’.

    Here is one for you: Kitty corner to my unit is a young woman – early 20’s – who claims to be all things enviro. One of the strata members caught her attempting to pour paint down the drain in the back way…. yup, there are some real winners out there.

  • rph

    Where I live the nasties take their old paint cans (with leftover paint), oil jugs, and assorted debris and either leave them at the back doors of the local thrift shops, or stuff them in the charity collection bins.

    The city has had to ask charities to remove the donations bins from some locations as the dumping was getting out of hand.

    Despite the bins being gone, at one location near my house (and a school) the dumping of rubbish just continued in the spot the bins used to be. The city has recently erected a sign threatening fines, and so far that seems to be working.

    All this in an area of multi million dollar homes. Go figure.

  • jenables

    Teri- why would anyone do that? You can drop off your cans of paint at a paint depot, but I don’t suggest trying to take advantage of their “paint exchange” – I tried to do that once and they made it very clear that the paint was “money” and seemed very shocked at the idea that one could pick up free paint.. even though they are clearly listed on the product care site as a paint exchange. Hmmn, I meant to email product care about that..

  • jenables

    Also, you should get a real kick out of this one. Absolutely hideous. Seems they had to make sure it took up as much physical space as possible. Check out the pic
    http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/credit-suisse-marks-many-firsts-with-construction-of-green-office-tower-in-canada-1820108.htm

  • waltyss

    jenables, are you doing hair without your glasses on again or just sniffing too many of those hair products.
    Not the greatest looking building but not bad as far as high rises go with preservation of the old structure and a modified podium. But hideous???
    Spare me.
    Is there anything you like? I guess because its environmentally friendly and will be built to a high standard, that is a bad thing.
    Your mind seems to act like a ball in a pin ball machine, randomly bouncing around and lighting up whenever there is something that Vision may like and you must therefore hate. Its the only way I can make any of your posts make sense.

  • Threadkiller

    While walking south on Richards Street downtown tonight I noted with interest that as part of the reconfiguration associated with the “repaving” project south of Robson, the 800 and 900 blocks now have a brand-new curbside bike lane on the west side, with every sign that it will continue into the 1000 block and beyond. In an only-in-Vancouver triumph of form over function, and unlike other bikelaned streets downtown, automobile parking spaces on the bikelaned side of those blocks have been retained and are now approximately five feet from the curb, delineated by newly painted lines to indicate the metered spaces. There is no physical separation of bike lane and parking spaces, which means that anyone getting out of the passenger side of a newly-parked vehicle will have to be extra-vigilant in ensuring that they do not open their door suddenly and cause a cyclist to run into it; in addition, they will also have to take great care not to get struck by a speeding cyclist themselves. If the new bike lane is heavily used– and Richards is a heavily-used southbound downtown traffic artery– I envision debarking car passengers (and drivers) having to await an opportunity to safely vault across the bike lane between passing bikes. As for drivers, the new parking spaces are narrow enough that they will now be emerging from their vehicles directly into passing traffic, which includes buses and large trucks. I realize that the city is exploring various methods of discouraging people from bringing cars downtown, but putting drivers in potentially lethal danger strikes me as a somewhat extreme solution to the problem.

    I guess must be more out of touch than I thought these days. Was Richards announced as the location of the latest downtown bike lane, and did I miss that announcement somehow?

  • Jeff Leigh

    Welcoming the return to a subject related to the original post.

    I don’t think there was a major announcement, or a public hearing, I think this is just part of regular road maintenance by the CoV. There was work done beneath the pavement, the sidewalks were repaired (great!), and when the new pavement was laid down the line painting accomodated bikes and cars, while retaining parking. This is not an uncommon bike lane configuration, and is certainly not an “only in Vancouver” situation.

    There is a physical separation of parked cars and bikes, just not a physical barrier.

    Yes, drivers have to check for oncoming traffic when opening their doors. Just the same as if the bike lane was in the door zone on the left side of the vehicle. Drivers have the same risk as always, and should exercise due caution. But this way, cyclists have less risk, considering that there is always a driver, but not always a passenger.

    Separated bike lanes provide real benefits, but in locations that we can’t justify them, this seems a good solution to me. I drive, walk, and cycle this stretch, and look forward to seeing how it works.

  • Jeff Leigh

    I think this shows what Threadkiller was referring to.

    http://imgur.com/a/Wf5NK

  • Brian

    No, there was already a bike lane there, in pretty much exactly to configuration you describe, before paving. It wasn’t a major bike traffic route, partly because there are better options for most trips.

    Paint-on lanes next to parking are, imho, the lowest form of bike infrastructure, but better than nothing. I don’t think its great design, but its nothing new. And, I think, better than nothing. When you have nothing, bikes are usually riding in that corridor anyways. A few brave souls will take a lane, which is probably safer for everyone, but taking a lane on such a busy street is the best way to get angry drivers to tailgate, honk, yell, and pass unnecessarily closely. In short, the vast majority of cyclists are biking there whether we like it or not, and delineating the space encourages everyone to be aware of that.

    If I had my way though, there would be a separated bike lane. Much safer!

  • waltyss

    Some of the posters give a new intensity to the phrase “going off half cocked”. Threadkiller @ 315, for example.
    There is no new bike lane on Richards. There has been one for some time. Is the CoV to announce that lines for bike lanes are being repainted.
    It remains unclear whether having bike lanes next to the curb will be a permanent thing for all of Richarfs. But let’s assume it is. It seems to be experimentation with different approaches would be a good thing and would show what if any problems emerge, including those pointed out by the “hair on fire” crowd.
    An obviouls advantage of this configuration is thaat it separates cyclists from traffic while taking up less space (the width of the barrier).
    The width of the parking area seems about the same width as on any street. A driver opening their door should look in the rearview mirror to see what traffic is coming, just as they should do on any street. The addition is that a passenger will now have to look to see that a cyclist is not coming before they open their door. Well, frankly, they should look in any event. Overall not a bad tradeoff, I would think, but at a minimum, an experiment worth trying.

  • teririch

    @jenables #313:

    I did see the so called ‘design’ of what will yet be anotehr ugly glass tower overlooking the city.

    Like I mentioned, I travel a fair bit withmy work – internationally and admire buildings that have at least some ‘character’ to them. Vancouver is cookie cutter architecture – everything looks the same. Sadly, citizens will be stuck with it for decades or centuries to come.

    Here is a very good read about the broken trust that citizens have with the planning department:

    http://www.garthmullins.com/

  • Matthew

    Threadkiller, the kind of bike lane you describe on Richards is certainly not an “only-in-Vancouver” creation, as you describe it.

    I’ve seen them in numerous cities in North America and a couple in Australia. In particular, they have quite a network of them in Montréal where they are removed and turned back into parking each year from November to April.

    It’s true that they are vulnerable to certain forms of conflict. Can one think of a single type of road design that doesn’t have some kind of inherent risk for traffic conflict? But, I can tell you from personal experience that they provide a calmer and more comfortable route separated from the even greater risks that come from vehicular cycling in regular traffic.

  • jenables

    Thanks for the link Teri, I heard him speak at the meeting in July and I agree whole heartedly with what he is saying.

  • jenables

    Waltyss, if you can’t say it to my face, don’t bother.

  • IanS

    @TK #315:

    “If the new bike lane is heavily used…”

    Unlikely to be a problem, IMO.

    “I envision debarking car passengers (and drivers) having to await an opportunity to safely vault across the bike lane between passing bikes.”

    It looks to me like there is a bit of a buffer put in to give space for car doors opening and to provide a place for disembarking passengers to stand in the event they have to wait for bikes to pass by.

    I think the design is an improvement over the old configuration by which the cars park next to the curb with the bike lane to the left.

  • gman

    jenables#321
    Good on you jen.Don’t even bother trying.

  • waltyss

    Well, jenables, since I don’t know where you are or your name, it’s pretty hard to do, so this is the closest I can come. It’s a pretty accurate description of the way your posts sound.
    As I asked in 314, name me a building that you like. I am still waiting. Unfortunately, positive contributions are not your forte. That you have a supporter in gman (hands down the nastiest, least positive poster on this blog) should tell you a lot about the nature of your contributions.

  • gman

    Like you said jen,its just another conniption.Not worth your time.
    There are plenty of people, like you, that would prefer having a conversation rather than infantile name calling.So please keep asking questions and try and ignore the shill.
    The majority of neighborhoods in the city seem to be pissed at whats going on and if we cant have a grown up conversation and ask pertinent questions then we have a problem.

    PS: This is coming to you from your apparently neighborhood racist.What a freaking joke.The man lives in a bubble and tries to connect me to some crazy comment on a blog he knows nothing about ,I guess he was having another Alinsky moment.

  • jenables

    You know what? my comment about this “green” building had nothing to do with you, yet you chose to take it personally and insult me for absolutely no reason. there is NO ONE else on this blog who operates in quite the manner you do. Google your own name and you will see exactly what I mean. What on earth do you hope to accomplish by insulting other people? Why do you have such a problem with people who have become suspicious and disenchanted with the current administration?
    Fyi, the kind of buildings I like are old, well built and interesting. The kind we have very few of and are losing rapidly here.

  • jenables

    Well gman, you know my hope was that waltyss would actually come out and have a civil conversation.. much like yourself and voony did, two polar opposites who didn’t need to resort to insults to have a conversation. Unfortunately it appears he would rather react with insults than make an effort to improve anything. I would love to have another pub night, so I’ll come up with something and if our excellent hostess doesn’t want to break our fingers at this point 😉 I’ll let her know too so she knows… ALL are welcome.

  • Don D

    This whole thing is weird. People who are apparently to the right of Attila the Hun (Waltyss et. al.) defending Vision as though Vision was a left-of-centre force for change and good, against critics who seem to me to be standing up for neighborhoods and working class citizens against the developers and their political enablers, the latter being branded as reactionaries opposed to all progress.

    Me? In the next election, as in the last one, I will be voting for my own slate of the less doctrinaire COPEers plus independents who oppose Vision on the basis of Vision being a pro-developer party of the RIGHT. Didn’t work out so well last time, but next time, maybe. At least the fig leaf has been ripped of Vision, if not the kilt.

    God, I wish the left would stop eating their young.

  • gman

    jenables #327
    At least you and I have the guts to show themselves, names or not.

  • teririch

    @Don D: #328

    Vision may get back in for the simple fact they have completely polarized City Hall.

    They have replaced most key positions with ‘yes’ people.

    As someone on Twitter mentioned… when was the last time city staff reported anything that the councillors didn’t want to hear.

    I pray a strong alternative comes into play – and they need to start getting organized now – not 3 months before the election. Get faces out front so that people get to know them and what they stand for – engage people.

    I would imagine we will see a lot of ‘feel good’ initiatives put out over the next while and in run up to the election – ‘vote buying’ might be the term.

    The block vote needs to be destroyed and true democracy needs to be secured for all of us.

    In all of my years, I truly don’t remember things being this bad.

    (Hey, but that is just the thoughts of your friendly neighborhood stalker! 🙂 )

  • boohoo

    “I would imagine we will see a lot of ‘feel good’ initiatives put out over the next while and in run up to the election – ‘vote buying’ might be the term.”

    As is the case with every election regardless of the party involved. Funny how it is ‘vote buying’ when it is not your team.

    “The block vote needs to be destroyed”

    Couldn’t agree more, but just voting in a ‘strong alternative’ is the same thing.

  • waltyss

    teririch @332. “Vision may get back in for the simple fact they have completely polarized City Hall.”
    What does that mean, pray tell? People will vote for Vision because City Hall (the Council?the bureaucracy?the janitors?) is polarized. How does that work?
    Is your position that people would not vote for Vision if City Hall were not polarized?
    “The block vote needs to be destroyed and true democracy needs to be secured for all of us.” You clearly dislike Vision. Fair enough. But tell me, in your Valhalla, what would “true democracy” look like? We have a city council duly voted in who is mostly doing what they said they would do. Apparently that is not true democracy because they were voted in by a “block vote”, which I assume means that more people voted for Vision candidates that for other parties. They did after all elect every candidate they ran. Why is it not at least possible that a majority of people voted for Vision because they agreed with what they were doing in their first term and agreed with their platform for the second?
    Will CoV voters vote for them again? Well, while I am not a great fan of Christy Clark, she made a very astute observation during the election. Between elections, the governing party is compared to perfection; during an election, it is compared to the other guy. As we saw, the Liberal party under Clark, while being a pretty pathetic government, was rightly seen by the voters of this province as preferable to the other guys.
    So, the answer is whether a party will emerge (the other guy) that the CoV voters prefer to Vision. There is 14 1/2 months to go. While you wouldn’t know it from this blog, the Mayor and his councillors are actually quite popular and have avoided major gaffes. Will someone else emerge in this period? Possible but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
    I would at a minimum like to see an increased opposition, as that is healthy for a government and Councillor Ball is a complete nonentity.

  • teririch

    ‘While you wouldn’t know it from this blog, the Mayor and his councillors are actually quite popular …”

    ***

    Yes, notoriously popular.

  • waltyss

    teririch. Your position on Vision is itself notorious. Why not answer the questions I posed which were a reaction to your post?

  • brilliant

    @Don D 332- How dare you sir! Waltsyss has gone to great pains to let us know what a staunch NDP supporter he is.

    As to COPE, good luck. We all remember how copesers Louie, Stevenson and Deal smelled power and created the Vision Frankenstein.

  • A Dave

    Richard 241 and MB 244

    Sorry I’m out of town and couldn’t respond to your rebuttal faster, but located some of the analysis I did in 2011 (posted to an old bula post) which showed car commuting by tracts:

    Yaletown 54%, Coal Harbour 45%.

    vs.

    Gastown 19%. Stathcona/Chinatown 22%

    vs.

    Alma 54%

    I will double check Richard’s 2011 numbers next month when I’m back in town and have regular access to my files and internet…

    However, I see Richard conveniently didn’t compare the tower zones to lower rise East End tracts or older West end tracts, where car commuting is far lower. Since that was the crux of my observation (that socio-economics, rather than towers, are behind car commuting rates), I don’t see how you disprove a theory by citing only half of the equation.

    I will admit the 2011 numbers Richard quotes show some improvement over 2006 numbers, however, a financial crisis intervened, which we are only slowly coming out of now, which seems to further support my theory regarding socio-economics of car use vs. other factors.

    So, I stand by my assertion that it is a huge leap of faith to be trumpeting as FACT that tower urbanism reduces car use, as MB has done blindly, without reference to ANY numbers other than those contained in wishful thinking.

    PS Richard, how many window blinds do you see open on the podium T-Hs? Maybe 5%? Some neighbourhood!