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Transit referendum won’t be until spring 2015 at the earliest

June 27th, 2014 · 42 Comments

Mayors decided yesterday that holding it at the same time as the November election is just too early and would likely sideline a crucial group of voters — university and college students.

Story here.

Categories: Uncategorized

  • brilliant

    The mayors are just cowards. They want to tax our very movement but don’t want to be associated with it at the Fall vote.

  • Richard

    @Brilly

    Says someone without the courage to use their real name.

    Anyway, the mayors are on record supporting new taxes and fees to invest in transit in an election year. Seems pretty gutsy to me.

  • Bill

    @Richard

    The only person I can think of that is known simply as Richard is Little Richard. Are you?

  • Jeff Leigh

    Too complicated the click the link on his name and read his profile?

  • Richard

    @Bill

    Not hard to determine my last name. It would take less time to simply click on my name to get to my website than to make that “clever” comment. Rather ironic though coming from a Bill.

    To save you the trouble and 1 second of time, here it is.

  • Richard

    @Bill

    Oops, here it is http://richardcampbell.org/

  • Bill

    @Richard

    I guess I just was not that interested in who you are. Still not.

  • brilliant

    And here I was thinking Richard was kind of like Cher. No surname needed!

  • Richard

    Uh, thanks guys for mention me in the same sentence as music legends. I’m flattered but holy off topic, BrillBill.

    Back to transit. The Province’s position makes little sense. They are fine with the region raising property taxes by whatever amount needed but won’t even give the Mayors the power to use other forms of taxes even though many people would prefer those taxes or fees to propert taxes.

    So just who are they trying to appeal to. They should just give the Mayors the authority and then let the voters have their say on their political future during the municipal election. That is what democracy is all about.

  • teririch

    I don’t think a ‘mobility’ tax is going to fly – at all.

    It penalizes the average working person – who is already taxed to death for everything from soup to nuts.

  • Art

    Seems rather odd to call the mayors cowards and not christy clark for her lack of intestinal fortitude. Is there not a homeowner grant that the premier could cancel? Would this not be a financial boost to our transit needs ? C’mon christy get your head out of the LNG sink hole and lead.

  • teririch

    @Art #11:

    That would go over as well as the HST – which most lefties voted to get rid of.

  • Bill

    Whether you call it cowardice or self-preservation doesn’t change the fact the Mayors, like all politicians in the Western economies, are afraid to be seen by the electorate as raising taxes. Socialists- oops progressives may think there is “there is enough wealth in the world” to pay for everything on the laundry list – transit, education, health care, housing and other social programs, mitigation of climate change, worldwide poverty – there isn’t. With economic growth rates of GDP around 2% we cannot grow out of our problem (and the actions of “environmentalists” to stop responsible growth doesn’t help) so the choices are to increase taxes which means less disposable income for taxpayers (and maybe get voted out), increase debt and shift the burden to future generations or be realistic on what we can afford. Perhaps successfully resisting the unreasonable demands of the BCTF is a good start on the third and better choice.

  • Chris Keam

    “there isn’t. ”

    “Military spending: how much does the military cost each country, listed”

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/apr/17/military-spending-countries-list

    A fella could have a nice time solving a few problems with $1.7t

  • Keith

    @13 Bill By charging a royalty of $46 per barrel for its oil Norway seems to be providing most of that laundry list of social programs, and has funded a sovereign wealth fund of over 900 million dollars. It amounts to over $180,000 per person.

    The favorite cry of the right wing is T.I.N.A. There is no alternative! We live in a global economy, we must have low taxes and a favourable regulatory environment for business or we will never attract investment capital ever ever ever!

    We are a resource rich nation with a small population, we don’t have to be hostage to the demands of capital. The example of Norway proves that we can charge a sufficient rent for the resources to fund our social programs. They dared the oil companies to pay the royalty or go home. They stayed and they have paid.

  • Bill

    @Chris Keam #14

    So your solution to finding funding for all the problems of the world is a spontaneous, worldwide disarmament by all countries. I think we will place that idea in the round file next to your proposals to end worldwide poverty (Open Borders) and to make Vancouver housing more affordable (sellers all decide to reduce their selling price to something more affordable).

  • Chris Keam

    “So your solution to finding funding for all the problems of the world is a spontaneous, worldwide disarmament by all countries.”

    Yes.

  • Chris Keam

    Ever notice how my ‘solutions’ always involve people acting for themselves instead of your big government approach Bill? No wonder I’m the bee in your bonnet.

  • Bill

    @Keith #15

    I am glad you agree with me that we should be developing our natural resources for the benefit of Canadians and we need more people like you to stand up and counter the extreme views of many environmentalists that oppose all development of the oil sands. And I agree with you that we should ensure that Canadians receive a fair share of the benefits from our extractive industries. I would be interested in reading any research you have done or have read that would support your position that we are leaving significant money on the table that would seriously make a dent in the wish list that seems to grow daily.

  • boohoo

    This blog just isn’t fun anymore. Same old stupid arguments.

  • Keith

    @#19 Bill

    thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/03/31/Canada-Lousy-Oil-Negotiator/

    According to this researcher, royalties in Canada are $9 per barrel, less than 20% of what is charged in Norway. I would argue that quintuple the royalties/taxes would go a long way.

    Re development. Obviously fossil fuels damage the planet, however 70% of goods movement and travel use fossil fuels. The government should be taking tax and royalty income from that industry and providing dedicated resources to the alternative energy industry until it can stand on its own from a cost perspective. We could be global leaders in a new industry if we had leaders with vision.

  • canadianveggie

    The Port Mann and Golden Ears bridges are overbuilt and underutilized (did we really need to build the widest long-span bridge in the world?). The traffic volumes are way below the forecasts. On the other hand, the Canada Line is far exceeding its forecasts. Yet, the province still thinks investing billions in replacing the George Massey Tunnel is a better investment than public transit. It boggles my mind.

  • Richard

    @Bill

    Canada is obviously being played by state owned oil companies. The current royality scheme that has low rates until capital expansion is paid off encourages over building of short term capacity which increases the costs and lowers the price of oil. When Alberta tried to fix the royality rates, the oil industry funded the Wild Rose Party and the Conservatives backed down.

    The current over expansion certainly is not good for Canada’s long term economy. Once the boom is over and the oil starts to run out, it will be pretty bleak.

  • Bill

    @Keith #21

    I am not going to say that Alberta has managed their oil revenues well but I am not sure it is a problem of how much they were and are getting for resource development rather than their choices in other revenue sources (low rates of income tax, no provincial sales tax) and high per capita expenditures for government services. It would take an in depth look at the different taxation regimes as well as product mix – (natural gas production represents 50% of the total annual BOE while Oil Sands and Conventional oil are about 25% each) and other market differences to determine if oil production is under taxed relative to other jurisdictions.

  • Bill

    @Richard #23

    It’s not clear if you support resource development but with higher taxation to pay for social services or the oil should be left in the ground in which case how do you propose to pay for the wish list of expenditures, including transit expansion?

  • boohoo

    @25

    Assuming you believe we should keep extracting oil to pay for things, what do you do when the oil runs out/becomes prohibitively expensive to suck out?

  • Richard

    @Bill

    A bit of both. Slowing down the pace of extraction decreases the cost and thus profits and potentially the royalities. Taxes on corporate profits would also help return money to the public.

    Alberta is in the rediculous position of running deficits due to the need to expand infrastructure to accomidate the grow caused by the oil sands. They are hooked on expansion because they aren’t taxing the industry enough.

  • boohoo

    @27

    This is very similar to single family residential construction in the suburbs here. They are a money loser for municipalities but are sold partly on the basis of their being new taxpayers. Ridiculous.

  • Richard

    I state corrected. Alberta just reported a surplus although it was partly due to cuts to post-secondary education and hard lines taken on wages for doctors, teachers and civil servants that angered opposition party members and other critics.

    The other reason was higher oil prices and a lower Canadian dollar, neither which are served by the planned massive expansion of the oil sands.

  • Keith

    @Bill#23

    One way to have certainty on energy revenue would be to copy the other six oil exporting nations in the world and have a state owned energy company.

    It’s a great way to have certainty as to what level of taxation and resource rent can be paid in the industry, as well as helping to shape health and safety policy and environmental standards.

    Of course a state owned oil company is anathema to free market purists, but I am more interested in practical policies and trying different solutions in order to have a better society.

  • Bill

    @Keith #30

    I believe that government has an important role to play in our economy but as a referee between competing interests and not as a player. First, they can end up in a conflict of interest if they are also a player and second, government is not very good at managing (right or left).

    For example, do you think government would tolerate the tragic outcomes in our health care system or child welfare cases if the services were the responsibility of private companies? Not a chance. Also look how poorly Translink and BC Ferries have been managed under the watch of a “business orientated” government.

    While Statoil appears to be very successful for the Norwegians, I would say this is the exception and not the rule.

  • teririch

    @Keith:

    There is a term used for ‘state owned’ resources; it is resource nationalism.

    And companies will not go there.

  • Bill

    @teririch #32

    It is amazing how some will overlook government failures in managing enterprises and instead look at other countries for success stories. Look at the CBC. It costs the Canadian taxpayer $1.1 billion annually just to try to break even when private broadcasting assets are very profitable.

  • Keith

    @ tererich #32 Bill #31

    Norway set the terms, the oil companies said they would not invest. Norway said fine, the oil goes nowhere. The oil industry considered, invested, and pays the royalties and taxes – it can be done.

    If we are the only oil exporter without a state owned oil company, we are the outlier, not Norway.

    The track record of private companies that kill or maim people – we could start with the exploding Ford Pinto scandal, and go on and on and on and on.

    I’m reliably informed that auto insurance (before my time) in this province was so badly done there was a serious debate around legislating no fault insurance. The Socreds never got rid of ICBC, nor the Liberals even though ICBC makes nearly as good a target as a teachers collective bargaining agreement. They’re afraid to get rid because it could blow up on them. How many insurance lobbyists have demanded the privatisation of ICBC in the last 40 years? No politician has dared.

    It’s been fun kicking this stuff around, but we are occupying too much space on a civic blog in a debate that will never end. Last comment to you.

  • Chris Keam

    “It costs the Canadian taxpayer $1.1 billion annually just to try to break even when private broadcasting assets are very profitable.”

    Apples and oranges. The private broadcasters aren’t under the same obligation to provide the range of services delivered by the CBC, to a wider geographic area, in two languages. Nor, arguably, do the private broadcasters provide the same public service/oversight of government typically associated with the CBC’s investigative journalism efforts.

  • Richard

    @Bill

    I agree that the government should play the role of referee. Unfortunely, the current government awards the oil industry free kicks without the oil industry even having to fake an injury. And it is helping the industry with free advertising and scouting reports. It trash talks the other teams as well. Horizontal strips probably more appropraite than vertical.

  • Bill

    @Keith #34

    Our family saves hundreds of dollars each year by purchasing optional car insurance coverage from a private insurer and I have no reason to believe that similar saving would not be possible if the mandatory coverage was available privately as well.

    Privatization of a monopoly business like ICBC is not that simple. Sell it with the monopoly intact and you must have an effective regulatory regime in place to control rates which is not easy with insurance. Opening up the market to competition results in a loss to the taxpayer (even though there might be a gain to the consumer) as the business is “given away”. And you are right. The vast majority of voters are also consumers of car insurance and screwing up the privatization could be costly on Election Day. The downside is much greater than the upside for politicians.

    As for your example of the Ford Pinto scandal, these events will happen but I would rather have the government in the position of taking appropriate action rather than being responsible for the organization that is having the problems. See examples in health care and children’s services.

  • Bill

    @Chris Keam #35

    The United States Government subsidy to public broadcasting is $445 million, less than half of the CBC funding and for a population 10 times greater. The balance of the funding comes from donors and other fundraising activities like merchandise sales. Maybe this is the type of funding we should be looking at for the CBC. (A Peter Mansbridge bobble head would probably be a big seller). This would no doubt make the CBC more responsive to its audience as well as making the tough decisions on spending. We can still have the government supporting public broadcasting but doing so responsibly by injecting a bit of market place discipline.

  • Chris Keam

    Bill:

    You compared the CBC to private broadcasters as an argument for private businesses financial acumen. I provided some reasons why it’s a faulty perspective. No reason to expand the discussion in this off-topic direction. Your original analogy doesn’t offer a useful comparison, that is all.

  • Bill

    @Chris

    And my response was that if there were additional objectives that could not be satisfied by the marketplace, it doesn’t mean we should not try to inject some marketplace discipline to offset the downside of government involvement.

  • Chris Keam

    And again, by using PBS, you offered another apples to oranges comparison. Why not compare to the BBC or other state broadcasters to determine funding levels?

  • Bill

    @Chris

    Maybe you are right and the question should be why do we need a “state broadcaster” rather than how do we try to fix it.