Frances Bula header image 2

The promise of a new approach is damaged after sneak towers appear in Commercial Drive plan

July 16th, 2013 · 50 Comments

As I say in this story in the Globe and Mail, which comes in at the tail end of a debate that Frank Ducote introduced us to a little over a month ago, many observers in the community thought that the city was going to do things differently when it adopted a go-slow approach to developing community plans.

Although those plans have lots of good things in them (and represent hundreds of hours of hard work by planners who I know have been spending their nights at community meetings, on walks, at public gatherings), they’ve been skewered by the addition of a few elements that attract public anger and help feed the elaborate theories about what council is up to.

A shame. But, planning manager Brian Jackson says, these are just the first drafts. The proof will be in the final versions.

After a series of public rebellions against new developments in Vancouver the last four years, the city’s recently hired planning manager promised that things would be different.

Instead of getting embroiled in one-off battles over individual projects, general manager Brian Jackson said planners would develop thoughtful blueprints for four key neighbourhoods. They would listen to the residents. They would provide specific details about height and density so no one would be surprised by anything that came along. Their community plans would provide a model for future planning in other city neighbourhoods as Vancouver strives to accommodate more residents.

 

That utopian vision has taken a beating in the last couple of weeks after major uproars about two of the plans – one covering the city’s popular Commercial Drive area, called Grandview-Woodland, the other in the Marpole area near the Fraser River.

In Grandview, the community was outraged over the news that planners envisioned a 37-storey tower and a cluster of other smaller towers around the area’s major transit hub. In Marpole, the igniting spark was a city proposal to cut one street in half and allow houses to be built on the other half.

In both cases, residents said those weren’t their ideas at all, but concepts that seemed to come out of nowhere.

And activists in the two other communities slated for plans – the West End and the Downtown Eastside – say more public opposition is coming.

The city has now backed off the two most controversial ideas.

“Staff have heard loud and clear that the public was opposed to the heights,” said Mr. Jackson after a raucous couple of meetings in the Commercial Drive area last week. “We’re going to be reformulating how high density can be achieved there.”

Mr. Jackson’s staff went back to the drawing board last week at a new planning session, where residents were invited to use Styrofoam blocks to show what kind of building density they preferred. That showed that many preferred a lower, European-style approach to density, with clusters of eight- to 10-storey buildings.

But the uproar has demonstrated to many residents that the city’s political leaders and planners are still tone-deaf when it comes to hearing what kind of city people want.

And it’s demonstrated, one more time, to those same politicians and planners that inserting density into the city’s older neighbourhoods is going to be many times more difficult than it was to create the “Vancouverist” downtown of tall, slim towers that put the city on the map in the 1990s and 2000s.

One of the city’s most persistent critics, West End activist Randy Helten, said most people in the city understand new residents are coming and there needs to be new buildings for them to live in.

But he believes there’s now a huge level of mistrust about how new development will be integrated, because of the city’s poor approach to consultation.

“It’s quite clear from the city’s perspective that they want to appear to have consulted but they don’t want so much consultation that it causes trouble.”

Others say it appears to be more a case of bad management than deliberate deceit. Residents who have gone to the many public workshops that have been held say individual city planners are making a genuine effort to talk to the community and understand what people want. They have produced some good ideas in their draft plans that reflect what was said.

But those planners appear to be hamstrung by tight budgets and short timelines, which are fatal to successful community consultations. They don’t have the money to send out comprehensive mailings, with the result that many residents say they never knew a consultation was going on.

And those planners seem to be getting orders from elsewhere. Neither Mr. Jackson nor anyone else has been able to explain convincingly how towers came to be part of the Commercial Drive plan when no one had ever mentioned them in public meetings.

Mr. Jackson now says planners had decided to take “much more of a focused approach to high density” and that’s what led to the tower cluster. He acknowledges that “the community was caught by surprise.”

The four community plans are supposed to be adopted in the fall, which Mr. Jackson says gives everyone lots of time to thrash out the details of density.

He also says the city needs to do a better job of telling the overall story. That story? “The vast majority of the land base is not going to change. The values that they have come to like in their neighbourhoods are still going to be there.”

So far, that’s not what many people have been hearing.

Categories: Uncategorized

  • Bill Lee

    Norquay II.
    We’ve already seen the first movie and know what the Drive, etc. will come out like.

    I wonder if those signers of Mayor Robertson’s nomination papers who live near the drive, knew what they were etting into when they supported the Vision leadership?
    Such as:
    Anthony Nicalo 2000 Ferndale
    Andrian Sinclair 2200 Ferndale
    Michelle Banner 1700 East 13th
    Marta Becker 1100 McLean
    Donovan Woollard 1800 East 7th
    Andrea Curtis 700 East Georgia
    That there little enclave of 1910s Anglo-Ontarian architecture is going to be fiat rezoned to 5 story walkups with glass and concrete towering over and flush with the sidewalks.
    And with the passing of the rezoning, rents will go up 50, 100% in the new buildings if they want to stay in the bar besotted Drive.
    Andrea Reimer at the GWAC meeting said that she will move to Burnaby.

  • brilliant

    Honestly who is surprised? Vision doesn’t consult – they pretend to consult then do whatever the helll they want.

  • mike0123

    Rents are always higher in new buildings. Obviously, we need to build more old buildings. Council should make the rezoning retroactive.

    One-bedroom apartments rent for $900 to $1200 near Commercial and Broadway, which is about $100 more than is typical of similar buildings in less convenient locations, like the north end of Commercial or Lonsdale or Brentwood or Lougheed. The apartment buildings are getting old, the maintenance costs are undoubtedly increasing, rents are not at much of a premium, and eventually many will be replaced.

    Few apartment buildings have been built near Commercial and Broadway in the last 30 years. There isn’t much of a stock of middle-aged buildings to take the place of the older stock as older buildings are redeveloped. If new apartments are built, rents will be split into tiers, likely at the current rate for old buildings and at a much higher rate similar to the rents in new buildings elsewhere in Vancouver.

    The newer, better one-bedroom apartments rent for $1700 to $2000 at Main and Stadium and for $1200 to $1500 at Joyce. I expect that rents for new one-bedroom apartments near Commercial and Broadway will fall somewhere in between.

    The best candidates for redevelopment will probably be the empty lots and rented single-family houses right near the station that will be zoned for more than 4 storeys, the higher the better. The 3 and 4 storey apartments are lesser candidates for redevelopment when zoned to 6 storeys because they would not make their owners as much more money as redeveloping the empty lots and houses. To keep the neighbourhood from experiencing too much turnover from people getting priced-out, we can only hope that the soon-to-be-zoned-for new apartments built in place of empty lots and single-family homes are middle aged by the time the existing stock of rental apartments starts to be redeveloped.

  • tedeastside

    nobody is moving to Vancouver…the city is a creepy ghost town, new developments sit empty

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    New approach? Not reeely… Here it is being spewed forth in Melbourne, 2010:

    http://wp.me/p1yj4U-dB

    Here’s what’s missing… there is no understanding for the meaning and making of place. It is all a cool calculation about density…

    Well, there is a LOT more to ‘good’ urbanism than just ‘density’.

  • Jay

    I live a few blocks from Main St. Typically along Main you’ll find 1 story retail, but in the blocks between 17th and 19th Ave., you’ll find the preferred form – 3 to 6 story residential with retail at ground level. This gives this stretch the advantage of having a strong population right on Main St., yet these are the deadest few blocks on Main St. Why is this?

  • PW

    It won’t happen but an ambitious politician might do well by calling for a moratorium on tower development. It certainly was not an issue in the last election, at least nowhere near to the extent of chickens and bikes, but I am sure she would find a lot of support.
    While a moratorium would really be saving developers and “investors” from themselves, the opposition would be massive. The notion that we should have anything but constant construction has become alien. With local governments and the media so deep in the pockets of the development and real estate industries in this town we will just mindlessly forge ahead.

  • rph

    @Jay #6. Maybe it depends on the retail mix? You notice this on Cambie, where some stretches of the street (that have retail) are just more vibrant than others.

  • Kira Gerwing

    Re: “inserting density into the city’s older neighbourhoods is going to be many times more difficult than it was”

    I’d suggest that decision makers at the City – the ones who really dropped the bomb on 36-storey towers on this community – squandered the opportunity to have a genuine conversation with our neighbourhood. From all I’ve gathered to date through this process, our neighbours weren’t averse to having density at the intersection at Broadway and Commercial. We wanted (and are now maybe getting) a fruitful conversation about alternatives to the podium and tower to land density here. There was a chance for City to bod on the trust built between their staff and the community. Unfortunately, that concept of trusting residents or citizens – or even staff, for that matter, is beyond the realm of understanding for senior management and Council. The re-building of trust that needs to happen to get this plan through will only add cost, time, and effort. It didn’t need to go this way.

    City building is a complex exercise, not a complicated one. While our younger city planners have learned to embrace that complexity and work to build healthy and sustainable urban systems, their bosses have not.

  • Bill Lee

    @rph // Jul 17, 2013 at 8:44 am #8 and others

    But it has always been that way. One side of the street is more “successful” than the other.
    Multiple reasons including shade/sun, how residents approach that side of the main street from residential area, and long term anchoring businesses that have built up a clientele.

    The Drive has the sunny side (most of the day, afternoon) doing more business that the shady side. Business are more active in goods rather than services (restaurants, insurance, banking) on the sunny side etc.
    The Main Street 17 to 19th part is the linking of Westminster (Main) Street (Vancouver City) with Main Street (South Vancouver Municipality)
    See “Street Names of Vancouver (Walker 2000) page 74 at http://www.vpl.ca/bccd/index.php
    There used to be light industry on those streets as most of the area south of 16th Avenue. Remnants are still to be seen in the back alleys and places several lots off Main for quite a distance south.
    When rapacious Speculators could assemble a block face they have applied for a tower (nowadays called condo tower) and put in over-priced rental below.
    The 3333 Building on the west side shows the worse when they had two retail clients (TD bank, Shoppers Drug Mart) to build to.
    If the city had been wiser they would have limited each to 4 metres of frontage (lots in the back) to acheive a variety of retail in that strip.

  • Bill Lee

    “Mount Pleasant’s draft community plan had allowed for some “iconic” buildings at key sites — such as the fire-ravaged lot at Kingsway and Broadway — but community representatives thought they’d been clear they wanted building heights limited to between eight and 12 storeys. The city interpreted the plan differently, paving the way for the development — now slated to be 22 storeys — to go ahead.
    So when Bohus heard residents of Grandview-Woodland were blindsided by the suggestion they might get their own highrise — a 37-storey tower near the Commercial SkyTrain station — it cemented his feelings the city’s consultation process around accommodating density in residential areas is in serious decline.
    “I think the city is being even less responsive, so they’re going more to the top-down model (of decision-making),” he said.
    Bohus isn’t the only one noticing a pattern….

    Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/Neighbourhoods+fight+against+Vancouver+densification+plans/8668202/story.html

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    Preliminary report on how to get to good urbanism right here in Mount Pleasant.

    http://wp.me/p2FnNe-8f

    Same goes for the other neighbourhoods.

  • jolson

    @9
    If your neighbourhood happens to have a Skytrain Station then planning concepts in use will be applied. “Transit Oriented Development” and its companion the high rise point tower is a supra-neighbourhood planning concept which has more to do with moving people around the region than with respecting local experiences of neighbourhood. Planning concepts of this type are in conflict with the very idea of neighbourhood dialogue.

  • F.H.Leghorn

    Poor Vision. Can’t do anything right, unless it involves density bonuses. One can’t help but wonder whether Mr. Magee has his own little enemies list. The list of friends is of course public knowledge.
    Speaking of friendship and Vision, it’s instructive to recall the lesson learned by COPE: with friends (of Larry Campbell) like these, who needs enemies.

  • gman

    F.H.L @14
    You mean like this list?
    http://alexgtsakumis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/vision_email_redacted.jpg

  • tedeastside

    @Jay….see Coal harbor Vancouver densest neighborhood and theres tumble weeds blowing down the streets, its such a failed , poorly planned place, never seen such a dead community

  • Tiktaalik

    I would have loved to play with blocks during the Mount Pleasant Plan process. That sounds like a very easy way for residents to visualize the neighbourhood. It sounds like the Grandview Woodlands process is more flexible than what I experienced at Mt Pleasant, but the slate should be even clearer from the beginning.

    The city needs their initial presentations to be at much more of an open state, with several significantly different approaches for development available on the table. If we did this then the community would actually be able to have an open discussion about all the possibilities of what they want their community to actually be like.

    In contrast to this, the approach of the Mount Pleasant process was essentially a pre-made plan handed out to anchor in residents’ minds what the possibilities were, and from that point there was just a tiny bit of wiggle room on the details.

  • Jay

    Unless I missed it, I didn’t see what kind of density we can expect on the Safeway site. I presume if they are proposing 36 story towers, that the density will be higher than what is being developed at Rize at Kingsway and Broadway, which is at around 5.5 fsr. Broadway/Commercial will have a very high transit capacity with 4 rapid transit radiating away from it, so should we expect a higher density than Rize? Instead of playing with blocks, I think the community needs to first decide what the appropriate density should be.

  • rph

    @jay #18. Should a community decide densities before a rapid transit system is in place? Of course I am thinking about the UBC/Broadway line.

    The city should not be allowed to dance around density issues. If transit goes in, this is what could be built block by block.

  • Westender1

    There have been no references to density in the West End community plan process. All development potential is referenced only in number of storeys: two storey commercial on shopping streets, six-storey laneway housing on back lanes, and tower development from 20 to 70 storeys in “corridors.” Are the densities proposed 2.0, 5.0, 11.0, or 17.9? If anyone knows, they’re not saying. I think wood blocks and 3-D representations would have been great ideas, but neither have been offered to date.

  • Voony

    a “behind closed door” workshop on the topic has been done on July 6th.

    I had registered as soon as possible, but apparently it was not fast enough to be part of the workshop.

    Transit advocates (from Transport-action) didn’t get more luck. what is kind of curious considering what is at stake is a “transit oriented devlopment” : Selection of the attendees to the workshop has been done apparently on secret criterias.

    I am not sure I understand the engagement process of City Hall on it.
    In my experience, Translink has a much better approach: workshops behind closed door happen at Translink, but with stakeholders duly identified (record of the identity of people present to the workshop are available). This engagement tool is good, since it help to frame the conversation, and so need to be done before the general exercise with the public not after…
    here we seems to have cityhall in damage control…but if the process was right from the start, it could have appeared clear to all parties that the Commercial#Broadway area should have been excluded of the community plan right from the begining, to be the object of a separate and specific plan, rather than to be considered as a “sub-area” of a larger neighborood.

    The Cambie corridor plan in that respect, was much more sensible (By excluding the area North of 16th of its scope: Again not sure why the city didn’t capitalized on what has been considered by many as a successful approach.

  • Don D

    Flying under everyone’s radar is what’s happening on Union Street – fledgeling, revitalizing businesses devastated by the loss of parking and restrictions on access, Strathcona pedestrians subjected to even greater peril on neighborhood streets, 2,000 cars per day diverted from a non-residential, non-business connector (Union between Main and Quebec) onto two tiny, over-trafficked and already dangerously congested residential streets (Milross and National between Main and Quebec) – all of this either without any consultation at all (as in the case of the Creekside neighborhood) or a bogus process in Strathcona which masqueraded as consultation while ignoring every single neighborhood concern.

    Enough is enough.

    Residents of Kits, Marpole, Grandview Woodlands and every other neighborhood under threat: please join us:

    Protest rally, 200 block Union, 8:00 am Tuesday, July 23.

    We live here, we work here, we want a say.
    Help us protect our neighborhood – and yours.

  • Jay

    Looking at the issue of high density, transit oriented development, it’s interesting to note that transit usage around Skytrain stations is in the 30 – 50% range vs 16.5% average for Metro Vancouver. The highest usage in the region is the Maywood neighborhood in Metrotown, where there is a whopping 53.1% modal share for transit. Go beyond the 400-500 metre range and the number drops significantly to 21.4%. It’s the same story for the Collingwood neighborhood – 43.6% modal share near the station vs 21.3% for an area that is only 650 metres away from the station. Same story in New West; same story in Grandview/Woodlands.

    I think these numbers are a clear demonstration, from at least (but probably more than) a transit perspective, how important it is to have high density development around a high capacity RT station.

    Broadway/Commercial will have the capacity to transport large numbers of commuters to Downtown, Metrotown, the Central Broadway Business District, UBC, the Renfrew Station business centre, and all the other jobs that are connected to the Skytrain network. All one ticket rides.

    The kind of densities appropriate for this transit hub cannot come in the form of 12 story mid-rise buildings. We should be looking at a high density mixed use complex incorporating office, institutional, retail and residential.

  • Jay

    Forgot the transit usage map…

    http://www.vancouversun.com/news/vanmap/6236509/story.html

  • PW

    Why the big rush? There will be little to no growth in Vancouver over the next decade. So why the big rush to change the city?

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    Residents of Kits, Marpole, Grandview Woodlands and every other neighborhood under threat: please join us

    Don D 22

    Don, you were the pilot project for the SUNN Vancouver initiative at the Institute for Environmental Learning, SFU:

    http://sunnvancouver.wordpress.com

    What is working at RAMP is a two-pronged approach:

    (a) Demonstrations and neighbourhood activism, just like you plan for next Tuesday; then

    (b) Drafting our own alternative view of change with all the bells and whistles.

    We’d be happy to help you and the other neighbourhoods get up and running on this two-edged approach.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    There have been no references to density in the West End community plan process… Are the densities proposed 2.0, 5.0, 11.0, or 17.9?

    Westender1 20, Jay 18

    Human-scale urbanism is 2.0 FSR. We can stretch it a bit on sloping sites to achieve social housing and find space to park the big boxes below grade:

    2.0 FSR outright;
    2.5 FSR on sites providing social housing; and
    3.0 FSR when the additional space is located below grade.

    The preliminary notes on the Mount Pleasant grass-roots vision are here:

    http://wp.me/p2FnNe-8f

  • TC

    PW, why do you say little to no growth?

    Flooding the market with supply is the way to reduce the cost of living.

    I think towers around Skytrain stations are a given. My bet is if 12-15 storey towers are built beside Commercial station this decade, it will be seen as a folly by 2040 when 40 story towers are being built beside those “rustic” 12-15 story towers from 2018.

  • PW

    TC Just my simple economic analysis: this city is too dependent on an overpriced property market. Prices in Vancouver are divorced from fundamentals like supply and demand, so building more towers will have little impact until the speculators tire of losing money and leave. Even a cautious organization like PIMCO (the world’s largest bond fund) is calling for a larger than 20% decline over five years.
    Thus, much less construction and many fewer construction jobs. Where news jobs come from is not evident right now because we have become so dependent on property development. So we go through a period of economic stagnation, or possibly even decline. I don’t think that is so bad after the boom or mania of recent years.
    PS Why should we basie development on the needs of transit? Shouldn’t transit be based upon what the people who live here need?

  • Westender1

    The only developers who are going to participate in “Flooding the market with supply” as a way to “reduce the cost of living” are those planning on bankruptcy. If the demand is not the there, the product won’t be built.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    I think towers around Skytrain stations are a given. My bet is if 12-15 storey towers are built beside Commercial station this decade, it will be seen as a folly by 2040 when 40 story towers are being built beside those “rustic” 12-15 story towers from 2018. – See more at: http://francesbula.com/uncategorized/the-promise-of-a-new-approach-is-damaged-after-sneak-towers-appear-in-commercial-drive-plan/#comments

    TC 28

    They may be a given, but they are not ‘good’ urbanism…. Speaking of which, I’ll be on CKNW tomorrow morning at 9:40 am talking about just that subject. Call in!

    Transit Oriented Development began in a symposium at U of Washington some time after Expo Line opened here. My suspicion is that the architects and planners that participated in Pedestrian Pockets were salivating at the missed opportunities in the planning the Vancouver system.

    Here’s post I wrote to explain when TOD is not TOD>

    http://wp.me/p1yj4U-cQ

    We can do human-scale high-density at the transit stop and reap the benefits of building both density and community values at the same time. Tower zones just don’t seem to be able to get the social mixing functioning.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    I think towers around Skytrain stations are a given. My bet is if 12-15 storey towers are built beside Commercial station this decade, it will be seen as a folly by 2040 when 40 story towers are being built beside those “rustic” 12-15 story towers from 2018.

    TC 28

    They may be a given, but they are not ‘good’ urbanism…. Speaking of which, I’ll be on CKNW tomorrow morning at 9:40 am talking about just that subject. Call in!

    You need to travel to Europe and see neighbourhoods that are 400-years old (and more) and still doing just fine at 3 or 4 stories high. Stable; well placed in the market place; obviously, possessing incredible sites for being there first.

    Transit Oriented Development began in a symposium at U of Washington some time after Expo Line opened here. My suspicion is that the architects and planners that participated in Pedestrian Pockets were salivating at the missed opportunities in the planning the Vancouver system.

    Here’s post I wrote to explain when TOD is not TOD…

    http://wp.me/p1yj4U-cQ

    We can do human-scale high-density at the transit stop and reap the benefits of building both density and community values at the same time. Tower zones just don’t seem to be able to get the social mixing functioning.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    @PW 29

    The Core Area Jobs Report is just one place where the City spells out its belief that the Industrial Lands must remain industrial because re-zoning would trigger land speculation.

    They have their reasons. However, what interests me is the economics of it. The economics really should not care to distinguish between industrial and residential uses. It should be driven by the size of the growth in value.

    Some put industrial land at $7 per foot and residential at $28. The jump in price is what the planners worry will trigger speculation. I see no reason to disagree.

    However, if we look at Mount Pleasant the re-zonings are going form Commercial use to high-density, high-rise residential. I don’t have numbers, but commercial is not that hot of a commodity. The hi-rise residential, on the other hand, is the HOTTEST commodity according to the same report.

    So it stands to reason that:

    (1) Towers in the downtown triggered higher land values downtown, and possibly elsewhere.

    (2) Rezoning to Towers in the neighbourhoods triggered higher land values in the neighbourhoods.

    If we stop (2) then the market should correct.

  • InsiderDoug

    To Ms. Gerwing #9

    Good comments, but lets name names. From what I’ve been hearing for months all over City Hall, Staff did a good job on the planning n’ consulting, tried real hard, had earned community’s trust, then new big shot top planner Brian Jackson dropped in a bunch of towers, and when it hit the fan, threw his staff under the bus instead of owning his own call. Shame is that the trust the staff earned over a long time is all gone. Staff deserve better from their leader. And dont get me started on Ballem and Magee, who are really calling the shots. They are the new Beasley/McAfee… shudder.

    Very bad stuff.

  • TC

    @ Lewis 31

    I’ve been to Europe several times, thanks. London and Rome are two of my favorite cities. But I have some news for you:

    1. We aren’t Europe.

    2. We can’t become Europe.

    3. We shouldn’t be trying to emulate Europe now.

    We can’t build “human scale density at transit locations” without bulldozing ~3-4 city blocks in a radius around big nodes like Broadway. We do what we can, which is to re-develop parcels of land when they become available. Somehow people think 3-4 story buildings will have character, and 3-4 story podiums with a 30 story tower destroy character. It’s simply not true. Buildings don’t create character, it comes after years of history. Europe has that, as for us: I refer you to my 3 points on Europe

  • brilliant

    @TC 28-Gawd not another mindles parroting of that old saw. Does Gordon Price spew that out in one of his classes or something?! So once again I’ll ask: explain how that theory has worked so well in Yaletown.

  • waltyss

    I know we should ignore Gordon Price and follow the venomous spew of an old geezer who has nothing constructive to offer.
    I thought Price this morning laid out the difficult choices well on Bill Good when he said that if you want to preserve single family neighbourhoods, then you will have to accept towers at transit stops. If you want European density (6-10 stories) like Mr. Villegas advocates, you will have far greater densification. The choices are not simple or straightforward.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    Somehow people think 3-4 story buildings will have character, and 3-4 story podiums with a 30 story tower destroy character. It’s simply not true. Buildings don’t create character, it comes after years of history

    TC 35

    What we mean by “character” is human scale. Fronting our arterials, yes, 3 to 4 storeys have “character”. Remember, urbanism is a concrete and verifiable set of facts.

    Years of history help, but not if you go the “character” wrong. And we can find plenty of places that work right form the get-go and continue to delight our senses and imaginations right to our day.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    I thought Price this morning laid out the difficult choices well on Bill Good when he said that if you want to preserve single family neighbourhoods, then you will have to accept towers at transit stops. If you want European density (6-10 stories) like [Lewis] advocates, you will have far greater densification. The choices are not simple or straightforward.

    Waltsys 37

    Two things about Gordon Price. One, I like the guy. Two, his record of service in our City Council is for the ages. Lucky that we had him there.

    On the need for towers to preserve single family neighbourhoods—I challenged him on that as ‘Caller #3’. The problem is that the numbers just don’t pencil out.

    Furthermore, I would suggest, that building towers near single family is just a BIG mistake.

    The error being committed consists in not distinguishing between “neighbourhood middle” and “neighbourhood edge”.

    If we want to transition from 4-storey product on the neighbourhood edge to cottage lots in the neighbourhood middle, then thats a Vancouver recipe for success.

    On the other hand, if we want to build towers everywhere (not just in the downtown) then that’s a recipe for disaster.

    Human-scale, high-density can be achieved at 4 storeys or less (not 6-10 stories).

    2.0 FSR to 3.0 FSR (bonus FSR for sites that build social housing units, and provide commercial space below grade).

    Small is beautiful…. And it can pack a lot of density too!

  • Jay

    If you want Lewis’ definition of human scale around Broadway Skytrain, you are not going to get it. The more massive mid-rise is a compromise between human scale 3-4 story apartments and a 36 story point tower. Does anybody really think 1 Kingsway is somehow a superior form over a tower? It takes up just as much space. At least with the tower/podium format you get human scale town houses and eyes on the street, plus some bonus park space.

    What makes a vibrant neighborhood is its demographic, and density helps as well. Do you think Davie Street or Main Street or Mainland Street gives a crap whether their customers come from towers or 3 story walk-ups?

  • TC

    @brilliant 35

    I’ve lived in Yaletown for most of the last 13 years, and it’s fantastic. As one of the often mentioned neighbourhoods that is very popular among locals, I think the onus is in you to explain to us what the problem is with Yaletown.

  • brilliant

    @TC 40 – you missed the point. I was asking you to explain why your “build you way to affordability” theory has failed so spectacularly in Yaletown, or downtown south, or false Creek etc

  • Warren

    @brilliant 41

    You’re putting words in my mouth. The great livable areas in and around the downtown core are victims of their own success. You propose no workable solutions.

    Your internet trolling skills are mediocre at best.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    If you want Lewis’ definition of human scale around Broadway Skytrain, you are not going to get it.

    Jay 40

    I’d be happy with the version I drew up in architecture school back in 1984… That little parking lot behind the MacDonalds was fitted out as an urban square. The entry to the station, or at least one of the entries to the station, was through the square. The square was big enough to be home to ONE tree. Something for the ages, like an Oak.

    Trevor Boddy was a prof at UBC in those days, and I remember his description of the 4-storey streetwall on Commercial as…

    “Justifiably a little nervous; not too sure about where the future is going with this.”

    Well, that was my second year as an architecture student, and some 20 years before my whirlwind tour of Georgian England, Scotland and Ireland.

    Form remains the same—human scale—the width of the fronting street or square sets the height of the buildings—and walkable.

    Density BTW matches tower density. But the focus is on making an urbanism that supports social functioning at the scale of the neighbourhood as a whole.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    Awh so much name calling… too bad.

    Look, I’m interested to hear about life in Yaletown, in downtown, in the places where you-all live. Let’s build an understanding together of where we are, not just of where we think we gotta go.

    Downtown is downtown. And Yaletown is in downtown. The servicing, the infrastructure, the social and cultural institutions, the density of jobs, all that is different downtown.

    In the neighbourhoods we need to pivot and a shift to a different urbanism. Something that is best understood, perhaps, growing from the school yards out.

  • brilliant

    @Warren 42-you dare to say I’m an internet troll when you answer to a post I addressed to a”TC “?! LOL too funny perhaps you should adopt Sockpuppet as your new handle!

  • Warren

    I logged in from a different computer, forgot I had an account as I rarely comment. Great argument you’ve made.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    Mr. Jackson’s staff went back to the drawing board last week at a new planning session, where residents were invited to use Styrofoam blocks to show what kind of building density they preferred. That showed that many preferred a lower, European-style approach to density, with clusters of eight- to 10-storey buildings.

    FB Globe and Mail

    I don’t know why this is being proposed as the right way to do ‘public consultation.’ We have to ask people about their neighbourhood, after all they are the experts of the place.

    But neighbourhood people don’t understand urban design. That is something that the professionals are supposed to bring to the table. There is a teaching role that must take place at the consultations that is just not happening in our community.

    Could it be that we are facing a lack of capacity in our professional team? Is urban design the missing component the community planning process?

    In order to test this theory, the Mount Pleasant Plan Implementation Committee (MPIC) asked for a self-directed workshop where we tested a charrette approach to neighbourhood planning.

    The results speak for themselves:

    http://wp.me/p2FnNe-8f

  • Norman

    Yaletown. Where no bird sings.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    The MPIC workshop modelled the Charrette process. On Thursday night we presented the second part of the Charrette Workshop Plan at MPIC.

    We will post our final report, and recommendations to both Staff and Council here:

    http://sunnmountpleasant.wordpress.com

    Here’s a “leak”: we were able to show intensification sites supporting a population of 24,640 people without building anything higher than 4 storeys.

    Now, that is 4x or 400% of the share of the proportional share of neighbourhood density asked for by the 2040 Regional Growth Strategy.

    Stay tuned for the full report!