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Rize tower approved: Council says “with major changes,” some opponents say “cosmetic changes”

April 17th, 2012 · 130 Comments

The Rize tower has been approved, with some conditions, which I don’t have the full text of here. The essence is that the developer has been directed to make a building that looks “ugly” (Andrea Reimer) fit in better.

Vision/Council is saying major changes are required. The ever-reliable CityHallWatch is calling them cosmetic.

Assessment from this thoughtful group?

Categories: Uncategorized

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Bill @ 99

    I respect your desire to ‘curb your enthusiasim’ with respect to your comments and I suppose in your position it is a bit more relevant for you to do so.

    I, as a plain ole citizen of Vancouver am not bound by those restraints so I will comment that Stevenson is a [unnecessarily nasty name-calling] who hid behind absence’s to avoid doing the job he was voted in to do.

    To have reacted very blatantly with his body language and comments the way he did shows contempt for the public and a disdain for responsibilities in his position as a Councillor.

    His JOB is to reveiw and educate himself on the facts of the matter before him and not recuse himself because he was too bloody lazy to do so.

    This only goes to illustrate what type of people we have running the City because Stevenson’s attitude of ‘meh, who cares, I am just here to follow the pack and do Gregor’s bideing’ is a reflection of many of the Councillor’s attitude that we have seen far too many times.

    I am right behind you Victor on the taxpayer’s revolt……drastic times call for drastic measures…..we showed them the proof that this proposal was wrong in its form and function and they showed us their asses in return…..I say its high time to return the favour.

  • GNR

    What is the piblic opinion on this: “At the Urban Design Panel meeting of Oct 20, 2010 the Rezoning Planner gave the Panel critical incorrect information saying that the height and density under the guidelines for this site were 3.3 FSR and 120 feet; then one month later simply changed the minutes to the meeting to say the height in the guidelines was 70 feet to reflect what she should have said. The City’s Senior Urban Designer, Scot Hein, spoke to the Panel after her and did not correct her statements. Therefore, the UDP made a decision on incorrect information. Thereby destroying the credibility of this process whereby the Panel approved this Rize project. The misinformation regarding the 3.30 FSR is still in the Jan 20, 2012 Report to Council in Appendix G, page 1 of 5. ”

    Council approved the Rize rezoning with this misinformation in the Jan 20/12 Report to rezone the Broadway & Kingsway site.

  • GNR

    @ GNR 102 A different question might be what does the public think of City staff changing minutes to a meeting to reflect what they wished they would have said? And why did Council do nothing about this and instead just accepted information in a Report that they knew was wrong?

  • Glissando Remmy

    Thought of The Midnight

    “Vision Vancouver must remember, their election Vasectomy is reversible!”

    “Given the recent series of what are in my opinion misguided and inappropriate spot rezonings by the current Council I have become increasingly frustrated. Unfortunately these frustrations have, in part, been vented inappropriately, particularly in the case of my comment 89 above. I have stepped over the line in my criticism of Councillor Stevenson and I offer him my apology for doing so. I would like to withdraw that comment, and in that end I have asked Frances to delete comment 89 from this thread.”
    For comment #89, Bill, you get this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktVyBOWmi2E&feature=relmfu

    Now, I am asking Frances to put comment 89 back! Naah… I insist!
    IMHO, no coward politician needs verbal protection.

    We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.

  • Jay

    “It must be spring… ignorance is bliss. Why the last 20 years Jay?”

    Because I was hoping to see an example that has common politics, common economics and common infrastructure to that of Vancouver. In the 21st century we now have to consider subway stations and such things. I don’t think Rome fits the bill, and you’ve mentioned some other very old European cities as well.

    Maybe there are some modern examples from similar cities like Stockholm or Seattle?

  • Higgins

    Bill #99,
    Please read Glissando’s post #104, and reconsider!
    A real politician must stay by its statements, in this instance You were Right and Stevenson was Wrong! Where’s the problem?
    I second Glissando:
    “IMHO, no coward politician needs verbal protection.”

  • Jay

    I don’t think it would be a stretch to call the intersection of Main and Broadway as part of the downtown area, where high densities should be expected, especially when considering there is also a high capacity metro line (25 000 pphpd) that will eventually be built along the Broadway corridor.

    Having looked at different cities throughout North America and Europe that have metros, the one common theme is high density. Each city has their density formatted in different ways, but high density none the less. And these densities appear just as great, and in some cities much greater than what is developing at this intersection.

    Some will say that 3 fsr (terminology that is relatively new to me) is the appropriate density for this site. Ultimately we are ending up with a density of 5.5 fsr.

    Downtown Vancouver has population density of around 45 000 people per square mile, but what I’m wondering is how this would convert into units of fsr? And wouldn’t downtown densities be appropriate for the area around a metro station in the Metro Core, or is fsr 3 already at downtown densities?

  • Ryan

    Yeah, to be honest this whole thing baffles me. Rize is already situated near the Canada line and would be smack dab over the main street skytrain station if the UBC line were built. What is all the fuss about? Say what you will about sleaziness, anti-democratic aspects, or aesthetic complaints but shit needs to densify around there if skytrain is going to be built.
    I think the main street area should grow up, in fact, it’s probably a shame that the building isn’t taller.
    They should let the developers build nice tall structures, crank up the area’s density to justify skytrain expansion, and in return demand Leed Platinum and lots of neighborhood amenities. I don’t need to remind this crowd of the economic benefits to high density- higher innovation and productivity, more affordable housing, and better economic growth are the result of growing up. Get with the picture people (especially Adriane Carr. Girl, I am dissapoint.)

  • jenables

    Glissando, this is a smidgen off topic, but I thought you might appreciate it. My apologies in advance.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuKu2exx8xQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    I have never been to hollyhock, but I feel like I have.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    Don’t apologize, you’re not far off:

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    And just one more, the “Hollyhock Sing-A-Long”.

    Should you dare, just remember, what has been seen cannot be unseen:

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    Looking beyond immediate shallow selfish perceptions, please do remind this crowd how this development will create more affordable housing when developers control supply so as to maintain a profit, and answer this: how many units in tower development for example, are developers adequately configuring to say, house families?

    We’re going to have a lot of seniors in the coming years, and families can opt for more than one child. With the inevitable possibility of needing to house extended families, senior parents etc., tower proposals have not been creating that form of housing except in token amounts.

    Why aren’t developments coming forth to create and house family units? Communities aren’t just made of singletons and “world class” wannabe’s who think they’ve got it made now that they can pay market rent to absentee landlords for shoe box sized condos or rental apartments.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    Just to add, my post and questions above are addressed to RYAN #108

  • Max

    @Ryan #108:

    Sure, because ‘LEED Platinum’ has worked out so well for those at the Olympic Village.

    I’ve been in those units and the negative air pressures leads to no air flow. The air stands still.

    And right now, there is a gentleman in the social housing component fighting to get out of there. He is recovering from lung cancer and cannot – by doctor’s orders, stay there. BC Housing opted to move him…across the street to another unit with the same issues. So, he couch surfs at friend’s and his place that is ‘rented’ sits empty.

    He is not the only one in those units that have noticed health issues due to all the ‘greening’ of those buildings.

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    “I don’t think it would be a stretch to call the intersection of Main and Broadway as part of the downtown area, where high densities should be expected, especially when considering there is also a high capacity metro line (25 000 pphpd) that will eventually be built along the Broadway corridor.” @ Jay 107

    Your are pulling my leg right? you have to be kidding me that you seriously think this (she says shaking her head).

  • Bill McCreery

    Higgens @ 107.

    I am withdrawing and apologizing for my comment because it was critical at a personal level that I was not comfortable with. It is often difficult to do, but it is important to me to keep these discussions on topic, factual, and on the opinion side, to the point, not the person.

    I believe my criticism of this proposal has been clearly articulated in a number of other comments over the past few months.

    This Council clearly doesn’t understand or conveniently, doesn’t want to understand neighbourhood concerns and issues. Perhaps it’s a bit of both. I, therefore, think that concerned citizens must continue to make their voices heard at both the planning and development level, as well as regarding developer, union and other special interests donations.

    It is clear that Vancouverites cannot trust Councillors’ voting motivations with respect to spot rezoning approvals so long as the implication remains that Councillors votes are being swayed by those who’ve donated to them. Nothing will change until that conflict, real or implied, has been eliminated.

    Ryan @ 109.

    The decision has not yet been made with respect to what kind of transit expansion will happen along Broadway. The two principle options seem to be:

    1) a very expensive, and therefore, delayed underground (try 2027 to 2032), and alternatively

    2) a more affordable, pay as you incrementally develop, primarily surface LRT.

    One of the important consequences of what kind of system is built is the density that is required at the stations. Very concentrated density, at least the way this Council is doing it, presupposes an underground system that Vancouver and Metro cannot afford IMO. As well, a primarily surface LRT system can be built to provide east-west service for the entire City for less money than is required for just a Broadway underground line. Coincidently this also allows Cllr. Jang’s “buildings” to be more neighbourhood friendly and presumably more acceptable to his “people”.

    On the development side a more dispersed LRT model offers many, many more, albeit smaller, development opportunities over many years throughout Vancouver’s many diverse neighbourhoods. A Broadway “corridor” will be built out in 5 to 10 years. Then what?

    The sad thing is that today there is a wonderful opportunity to create “sustainable, walkable, “people” scaled neighbourhoods” across the whole city as opposed to “transit corridors”, and Vision Vancouver does not have the vision to see that opportunity or the courage to seize it.

    Vancouver was on a path to become an even better livable, sustainable city. Instead we are taking the path backwards to a third rate urban environment. Very sad.

  • Jay

    “Your are pulling my leg right? you have to be kidding me that you seriously think this (she says shaking her head).”

    I gotta ask – What exactly you’re shaking your head at. Is it the Skytrain capacity or the redefined boundaries of Downtown Vancouver?

    “This Council clearly doesn’t understand or conveniently, doesn’t want to understand neighbourhood concerns and issues. Perhaps it’s a bit of both. I, therefore, think that concerned citizens must continue to make their voices heard at both the planning and development level, as well as regarding developer, union and other special interests donations.” – Bill McCreery

    I presume the city has urban planners to seek advisement from in order to make educated decisions that maybe the general public is not qualified to. So are these urban planners incompetent, or do they just get ignored?

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    “I presume the city has urban planners to seek advisement from in order to make educated decisions that maybe the general public is not qualified to. So are these urban planners incompetent, or do they just get ignored?” Jay @ 117

    The competent Urban Planners just get ignored or are told to tow the line or face unemployement. Think its far fetched to be that blatent, ummm nope, not according to the people I spoke with currently employed at City Hall or formerly employed.

    Another little factoid for you Jay, a few gentlemen who will be involved in the construciton of this project were having breakfast in the MP hood the other day and expressed their personal comments that they thought this project was not impressive or good for the community….food for thought no when people in the know know its crap or krap if your Scottish?

    Get with the program Jay, Gregor has an agenda and it has nothing to do with what is best for the City but rather what is best to dig City Hall out of a huge debt. He was presented with valid and productive options on what could be developed on this site by some of this great minded Urban Planners in our City but he did not even acknowledge their input…..maybe because it did not mesh with his agenda?

    Many experienced and well respected Urban Planners and Architects came out to speak AGAINST the Rize project because they know its crap or krap if your Scottish!

    What does that tell you?

    “I gotta ask – What exactly you’re shaking your head at. Is it the Skytrain capacity or the redefined boundaries of Downtown Vancouver?” Jay @ 117

    Ummm both, what is a City that looks and feels cookie cutter throughout it? bland, boring, uninspiring…….all great Cities have little areas that differ from the norm and thats what makes them interesting to visit and live in.

    Transportation, namely Translink is in financial dire straights, cannot accomodate the growing population and number of people who now commute…..alot of whom do so because they have to chose over keeping a roof over their head or buy a car and is being faced with an audit…..and you think this transportation corridor is going to be implimented when?

    When pigs have wings maybe……….FYI 3 car accident on corner of W Broadway and Kingsway…..had traffic backed up for over an hour around rush hour today, buses could not pass, drivers honking horns and driving irratically because they all wanted to figure out a way to get around the accident…..hmm, can’t wait for the Rize Development, with its 300 + parking spots to go up and congest this area even more.

    Only good news is that no one was badly hurt in the accident.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    Because I was hoping to see an example that has common politics, common economics and common infrastructure to that of Vancouver. In the 21st century we now have to consider subway stations and such things. I don’t think Rome fits the bill, and you’ve mentioned some other very old European cities as well.

    Maybe there are some modern examples from similar cities like Stockholm or Seattle?

    Jay 105

    Common economics, politics and infrastructure to Vancouver… Great questions!

    Foe the 21st century subway stations and such things, give Wikipedia a few minutes. Discover when and where subways were first built and why.

    Make a point to travel. Even a trip down to Seattle can be marvellous. It really doesn’t matter… The Okanagan, Vancouver Island, a weekend in Victoria. Walk and experience other places.

    Your questions ring true to me. You should make a point to explore them further for yourself.

  • Lee Chapelle

    @Ryan // Apr 17, 2012 at 5:00 pm
    I don’t live in Mount Pleasant. It seems like everyone is very opposed to the development of taller structures in the area and I’m a bit surprised

    That is not the case Ryan, a lot of taller structures have been built in this neighbourhood in the past several years without this kind of opposition. The main problem is that particular one is far too massive for this small constricted site. It was a terrible idea and a bad design from the start.

    It is obvious that the developers and planners that cooked it up don’t live in Mount Pleasant either.

  • Lee Chapelle

    @Jon Petrie // Apr 21, 2012 at 8:50 am

    Meggs: “As I read the plan … Is it not almost the only site where we anticipate significant rezoning that will produce community amenity contributions ?”
    Yardley: “That is correct we think this one of the 3 sites identified for higher density and higher height beyond C3A. This one in particular is the largest of the three where we think that is the site where you will achieve greatest height and density and the consequent greatest CAC’s …”

    In fact: the Rize site is the SMALLEST of the three at ~ 1.3 acres the other two are ~ 2.30 acres and ~ 3.2 acres.
    And if someone thinks this City Planning false statement is of no importance, please make the argument.

    It’s outrageous Jon, and disgraceful. If Council truly believe that the Rize is the largest of the 3 sites, as they appear to, and that influenced their decision to approve “the tallest building for all time” here then this process is corrupted beyond repair.

    As a relevant side note, the Rize site is technically not even a “large site” according the City’s own criteria, which is 2 acres or more.

  • Bill McCreery

    “… the Rize site is technically not even a “large site” according the City’s own criteria, which is 2 acres or more” is not a “side note” Lee, but definitely “relevant”. One must ask: how can this criteria be misunderstood or misinterpreted?

  • Chris Keam

    “can’t wait for the Rize Development, with its 300 + parking spots to go up and congest this area even more.”

    Traffic flows smoothly in that area for about 21 hours a day. No surprise, given that there’s 3 six lane roads servicing the Main/Broadway/Kingsway nexus. I encourage people to stand at Main and Broadway and look north or west. You’ll see the road periodically empties for most of the day, due to the way the lights work, and highlighting the road capacity still available. I think it’s unlikely we’ll see all 300 of those parking spots emptying at the same time, and frankly, if you are a pedestrian in that area, the slower the traffic flows, the safer it gets to cross the street.

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Chris Keam @ 123

    Really? I beg to differ, check out rampvancouver.com site for the truck demonstration and see the congestion it created on a Fri. afternoon and this is just one (1) vehicle not even on the main arterials.

    What 6 (six) lanes are you talking about as well as there are only 2 (two) lanes for each direction of traffic heading both North/South and East/West…..the outside lanes are parking and bike/bus lanes.

  • Bill McCreery

    So Chris, how come you weren’t front and centre supporting the Mt. Pleasant community with respect to their concerns about the adverse affects the RIZE over zoning would have on the bike lanes on 10th? Do you really believe that 2 Category C and 3 B loading bays + 2 garbage bays and + 295 cars (some short term retail) are not going to adversely affect the safety and functionality of the bike lane? What about drop offs to the condo tower on 10th? Sounds like a bit of a zoo and a biker’s nightmare. And, just wait till Patti Baucus gets to the School Board property across the street. You’ll need a ‘Bond Bike’ with razor cutters to get through those 2 blocks.

  • Chris Keam

    “So Chris, how come you weren’t front and centre supporting the Mt. Pleasant community with respect to their concerns about the adverse affects the RIZE over zoning would have on the bike lanes on 10th? ”

    Frankly Bill, because I have a sh*tload of work to do at the moment, I don’t really care if they build the damn thing, and if it does end up congested, I’ll hop off my bike and walk a block. although the benefit of biking is that congestion is something you simply don’t have to deal with beyond it being a mild irritant. Won’t take more than a minute (to walk). I’m not so important that a minute of my life is that valuable to anyone, even myself. Further, it’s not a bike lane, it’s a bike route, already shared by cars, trucks and cyclists. Further, further, I find most truck drivers professional and courteous, easy to coexist with IMO.

    “What 6 (six) lanes are you talking about as well as there are only 2 (two) lanes for each direction of traffic heading both North/South and East/West…..the outside lanes are parking and bike/bus lanes.”

    2+2+2 outside lanes equals six lanes.

  • Jay

    “Foe the 21st century subway stations and such things, give Wikipedia a few minutes. Discover when and where subways were first built and why.

    Make a point to travel. Even a trip down to Seattle can be marvellous. It really doesn’t matter… The Okanagan, Vancouver Island, a weekend in Victoria. Walk and experience other places.”

    I’m really trying to understand you, but your answers are vague to me. Without looking at Wikipedia, I would say subways were built in cities like London, Paris, and New York, because they had the densities to support it. This is how public transit works best, do you not agree?

    The Metro Core is 5 square miles. I don’t think it’s too much to ask to try and replicate the Paris model for density and public transportation within these boundaries. This is how cities work best, am I wrong?

    I’m curious about your plan for tower neighborhoods neighborhoods contained within 4 story buildings. I estimate the downtown core (tower development) has an average FSR of around 6, so how could you possibly configure this in a 4 story building, or more precisely the rize project that has a density of a FSR 5.5. What is your definition of high density?

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Chris Keam @ 126

    2+2=4, what part of 3rd lanes are for buses and parking don’t you get?

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    “Frankly Bill, because I have a sh*tload of work to do at the moment, I don’t really care if they build the damn thing, ” Chris Keam @ 126

    Just the type of attitude that does nothing to better Vancouver…..ironic though that you comment on your busy life but find a hell of alot of time to be on these blogs being critical towards people who have devoted alot of their personal time to bettering Vancouver for everyone (whom many I know have full-time jobs)….things that make you go hmmmm…

  • MB

    @Michelle S oMP, perhaps Chris K. types fast and takes 5-minute breaks in his schedule every hour os so.

    Chris’s ideas and opinions are as worthy as yours and mine.