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Open forum: Talk your heart out about Vancouver

March 15th, 2012 · 95 Comments

Tolls spread through the region instead of just the Port Mann, as Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts suggests?

More thoughts on how to create lower-cost housing?

How to preserve some of our beloved places — the Ridge, the Hollywood — from a city and developers whose attitude seems to be, “Sorry, I know you have some weird attachment to these dilapidated old buildings, but it’s  just too expensive and complicated to save them, you know.”

I am away for a short time, but I invite you to keep the conversation going in your inimitable way.

Categories: Uncategorized

  • Joe Just Joe

    And people that live in the Fairmont Pacific Rim which is right downtown and close to transit wanted so much more parking that they raised the price to $75K/spot and they still sold every additional space. People are choosing to spend more to drive.
    The last units to sell at Marine Gateway were in fact the cheapest ones that didn’t have parking. But heck you’re right I’m sure we can find some people would rather pay not to drive, too bad they appear to be outnumbered.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    It’s amazing the sheer number of well to do very young recent migrant men and women with more money than you’ll ever know who decide NO.

    No, I won’t buy that Ferrari, white BMW, or Mercedes to drive up and down Robson with and opt instead for a bike and translink pa… sorry I tried, I can’t pull off that level of gullible idealistic insincerity off as crafty and as convincingly as some here are obviously so well acquainted to.

  • Agustin

    @ brilliant, #48:

    Thanks for the timely reminder that a society where the standard of living is rising will choose the auto every time over the alternatives.

    Are you making the argument that if people want it, it must be a good idea?

  • Bill

    @spartikus #47

    “It was an era where there was an almost universal consensus society had to be as efficient as possible. And in that, public transportation was chosen over private automobiles”

    There was a general consensus in society that they did not want to learn to speak German or Japanese so they chose tanks and airplanes over cars. Public transportation was a consequence of that reality and not the reason.

  • MB

    @ brilliant #48: “@spartikus 40-Thanks for the timely reminder that a society where the standard of living is rising will choose the auto every time over the alternatives.”

    You’re right …. as long as it’s cheap enough.

  • MB

    @ J3 #51, you’re making my point in #55. The Pacific Rim ain’t cheap and not the average person could afford to live there, let alone purchase a parking spot.

  • spartikus

    That’s right, Bill. We prioritized finite resources and production capacity differently. We didn’t say, as has often been voiced here, well we have this system of private vehicles and roads that our economy is built around so there’s no point in doing things differently.

    We made a choice then. We made a choice after the war. We’re making a choice now.

    You’re right …. as long as it’s cheap enough.

    Brilliant is also assuming, incorrectly, that the standard of living is rising. For the vast majority it has stagnated for 30 years.

  • Bill Lee

    We’re number 56!!
    Vancouver falls down best cities list
    MoneySense Magazine ranks YVR 56th on annual list
    by Mike Lloyd Mar 20, 2012 07:59:23 AM CKWX
    VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) – Vancouver consistently ranks among the most livable cities in the world, so why are we dropping so fast down a list of the best places to live in Canada?
    MoneySense Magazine is out with its rankings of Canada’s Best Places to Live and we’re nowhere near the top. In fact, Vancouver doesn’t even crack the top 50.
    Number One for the third year in a row is Ottawa, while Vancouver falls from 29th to 56th, hit hard in the housing, weather and crime categories. But it’s certainly not all bad in Lotus Land.
    “The good news is 56th is still very high in the rankings, overall, out of 190,” says senior MoneySense editor David Hodges, almost apologetically. “In Vancouver, 16 per cent of the population bikes or walks to work, that ranks you at #6; Vancouver has great air quality, ranked at #7; Vancouver is ranked #5 for transit and you’re #1 in culture, sports and the arts.”
    The biggest detractor, according to MoneySense, is the cost of housing.
    “You certainly did come dead last when it came to the average cost of a home at $857,000. You are also fairly high in crime, the amount of precipitation and the unemployment rate is a little higher than average, too.” [ more ]

  • boohoo

    People opted for the car because the ‘american dream’ of a yard, white picket fence, 2.5 kids and a dog was alive and well. That’s not reality anymore.

  • Agustin

    @ Bill Lee, #58

    MoneySense Magazine is out with its rankings of Canada’s Best Places to Live

    I could go into how the methodology is flawed (e.g., how can the modal share of walking, biking and transit be considered a positive thing at the same time as the rate of new cars?), as it is for most of these lists, but instead I’ll just resort to a poor attempt at humour.

    Burlington, Kingston, Regina, Red Deer, Brandon are in Canada’s top 10 places to live? More like top 10 places to die – amirite?

    /rimshot

  • MB

    @ boohoo #59: “People opted for the car because the ‘american dream’ of a yard, white picket fence, 2.5 kids and a dog was alive and well. That’s not reality anymore.”

    Actually, wasn’t it 1.5 dogs?

  • Bill Lee

    “The provincial minister responsible for making changes to civic election rules says spending limits for campaigns will be in place for the 2014 vote.
    But Ida Chong, the minister of community, sport and development, said she couldn’t say how much candidates in Vancouver and the rest of the province can spend until a formula is finalized.
    ….Vision Vancouver spent $2.2 million, the NPA shelled out $2.5 million and COPE, which ran a coordinated campaign with Vision, spent $360,969.
    The spending by the three parties is almost $2 million more than was poured into the 2008 campaign. That amount, however, is a calculation of what each of the parties’ central campaigns collected.
    The totals don’t include money directed at individual campaigns—NPA mayoral candidate Suzanne Anton, for example, spent $70,924—or money raised by organizations such as the Vancouver Elementary School Teachers’ Association, which spent $100,869 to support COPE and Vision.”

    Read more: http://www.vancourier.com/life/Minister+promises+civic+campaign+finance+reform+Vancouver/6330548/story.html

  • Creek’er

    Does anyone else get the sense that Adele Chow is a parody of a Soviet official from the Ministry of Re-education?

    Call me incredulous, but those beliefs simply can’t be sincere…

  • boohoo

    She’s the result of the inane party system we have. Ridiculous as she comes across, her steadfast beliefs mirror many others on these blogs…

  • brilliant

    @Agustin 53-Are you making the argument that government should be telling citizens what’s good for them?

  • jenables

    @guest #46 I am thinking of southbound, i.e. Cornwall and Burrard to cambie and sixth. Call me lazy but I don’t see how twenty blocks away is servicing. reminds me if the cancellation of the 98 b line with the assumption that the Canada line would make it redundant, even though cambie and Granville are by no means the same street, especially if you are elderly, or handicapped, or have young kids in tow.

  • Agustin

    @Agustin 53-Are you making the argument that government should be telling citizens what’s good for them?

    Good lord, man.

    Government is the citizens’ representatives (through elections). The role of government is to help make people’s lives better. That includes balancing individual and societal benefits.

    Government “tells citizens what’s good for them” all the time. For instance, by banning murder, rape, hard drugs, etc., implementing environmental guidelines for industry, mandating seatbelt use in cars, and requiring that food producers not put poison in their foods.

    Now it’s your turn: are you making the argument that if people want it, it must be a good idea?

  • Julia

    boohoo #59 how about the Canadian dream – a small spot to play, a little patch of garden to grow basil or tulips, a tiny little hobby corner and a place where each kid can have a little privacy.

    Is that too much to ask? Is that so extravagant?

  • Adele Chow

    It’s great to see Patti Bacchus taking on Bill 22 on behalf of the Vancouver Board of Education. She is right to be upset about George Abbott wasting money on anti-teacher propaganda ads on TV and radio. I share her outrage over this provincial government’s chronic under funding of the public education system. The BC Liberals are a disgrace!

  • Chris Keam

    That’s a pretty picture Julia and something to aspire to, but in looking at our neighbourhoods one suspects that the Canadian Dream is a big house with a garage full of little-used sports gear, a room especially for the TV, and an expanse of grass addicted to water, fertilizer, and mowing. And a big ass boat or RV taking up driveway space.

  • spartikus

    It’s a fine dream for those that still aspire to it and achievable if you are prepared to move to a Canadian town.

    If you want to live in a Canadian city, it’s not something you are going to get unless you are very, very rich. For those who aren’t and are prepared to live in a smaller urban space, the trade-off is lots of amenities close by.

  • MB

    @ Julia #68, I’d like to chime in here too and reiterate some comments from the previous post on affordable housing — that we’re now talking about land prices exceeding $200 / square foot in single family areas. This is a 400+% increase over the past decade.

    I’m the last person to ask where the absolute affordability ceiling is, but I have a gut feeling we’re getting close.

    If ya got the cash for space, then sure, it’d be nice to accommodate whatever you can afford. Otherwise, you’re forced to start ranking your priorities and dropping amenities you value off the list. That can be a painful exercise.

    There is a lot of wasted land, too, that needs to be placed on the table. Often one of every two or three sideyards is relegated to outdoor blue-tarped storage, for example. Or that 792 ft2 front yard is discovered to be largely a high-maintenance visual amenity hardly used for anything more than delivering mail.

    One side yard desn’t make a big difference, but 200,000 … that is a huge amount of underutilized but increasingly valuable land. This is why the city needs to look at its own zoning bylaws and deeper neighbourhood consultation to address these issues adequately.

  • Frank Ducote

    MB – I agree with you that a lot of setback and yard spce requirements eed a revisit, for a lot of reaons. Especially the front yard which is a waste of spcae in my view, and serves to eparate rather than connect people to place. REductions in front yard requirements and allowing front yard infill for, say, live-work space could be a positive move.

    On your rebuttal to Julia, however, I must disagree. No tradeoffs are required for those who wish to live an urban rather than suburban livestyle. I have no reduced amenity, as Chris Beam, Sean B. and IanS have said separately on the affordable housing posting, which I won’t repeat here. I challenge anybody living half an hour by car from Vancouver to match the 98% walk score I enjoy downtown, near Chinatown and Gastown.

  • Frank Ducote

    Geez, what lousy typing on my part. My apologies, people.

  • F.H.Leghorn

    @spartikus #57: “Brilliant is also assuming, incorrectly, that the standard of living is rising. For the vast majority it has stagnated for 30 years”.
    Arguable, but if true it has to be added that it has “stagnated” at the highest standard on the planet.

  • brilliant

    @Agustin67-Why do I doubt that your in favour of your elected government’s plan to get the Northern Gateway pipeline built. But then, they do know best, right?

  • Agustin

    @Agustin67-Why do I doubt that your in favour of your elected government’s plan to get the Northern Gateway pipeline built. But then, they do know best, right?

    I didn’t say the government is always right. I just said they make decisions like that all the time.

    Quit avoiding my question.

  • spartikus

    it has “stagnated” at the highest standard on the planet.

    Which is nice except costs have risen relative to those stagnating wages. And just because we are better off than most people on the planet (and we are) doesn’t mean we can’t rethink the way we do things.

    Via Gordon Price, this from the NY Times is timely:

    The suburban poor also face the geographic challenges of decentralized living. Car ownership is a costly, brittle lifeline in suburbs with weak public transport networks. Budget cuts often target public transportation first, hindering access to jobs, as well as services. Suburban poverty also throws into bold relief the environmental burden of the suburbs; poor people are faced with the challenge of heating and lighting spacious but energy-inefficient single-family homes.

  • spartikus

    Source on stagnating wages claim:

    “Basically it means that individuals have less purchasing power than they did in 1981, which is rather striking,” Ken Peacock, research director for the Business Council of B.C. said in an interview.

  • brilliant

    @Agustin 77-Not avoiding your question. I believe in the primacy of the will of the people. Fascism is fascism, whether its military or eco.

  • brilliant

    @Spartikus 78-Seriously, Gordon Price as an unbiased source on anything to with cars? Does this thing have a rolleyes emoticon?

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Richard @ 50

    “Pretty much anything is better than the empty lot that is there now. That certainly is not good housing for anyone”

    Excuse me? its not an empty lot but rather a housing developement with over 40 apts that was designed from the get go for those with disabilities, not sure what piece of property you have in mind but its not this one.

    And how can you say it has little to no impact…..so what are you saying? that kicking a bunch of disabled seniors who have been living there for over 20yrs to the curb is just a blip on the radar screen that we should just ignore!

    Everything starts from the ground up, we abuse this situation and have no alternate game plan to back it up with then we have failed our citizens.

    Seriously? did you really mean what you wrote, if so I truly hope you don’t find yourself in their situation one day though I think it would be a good lesson for you to learn after making that unbelievable comment.

    Sad attitude to have amongst so many postive voices out there.

  • Richard

    @Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    I was referring to the Rize site. There is no housing there now is there?

  • boohoo

    uhh brilliant, that was the NY Times. Try understanding before mocking–makes you look kinda silly.

  • boohoo

    @Julia,

    As others said, that sounds great, but it’s not the ‘canadian dream’ of the majority.

    Regardless, it’s not about is it too much to ask or is it extravagant, the simple fact of the matter is we are running out of space (clearly I’m talking about Metro Van so ‘move to Fort Nelson’ is not what I’m getting at…). People want to live in Metro Vancouver–where do they go? What’s the suggestion?

    If I were king for a day, I’d stop all the insane greenfield development out in the suburbs (especially as our dear leaders in Ottawa are about to gut the fisheries act…), densify around existing and planned transit significantly while dramatically improving our public spaces. Densifying is great, but if you don’t provide parks etc it doesn’t work.

    That’s my big beef with the Cambie Plan, Rize, marine on gateway, etc…I’m pretty much in favour of the densities (although the corridor aspect of the Cambie Plan still puzzles me…) but I don’t see new park space in conjunction with this development. Where are people supposed to go?

  • Chris Keam

    “I believe in the primacy of the will of the people.”

    Smacks of anarch0-syndicalism.

  • brilliant

    @boohoo 84-I understood that, did you seriously expect Gordon Price to cherry pick anything else?

  • boohoo

    brilliant,

    Who cares who re-blogged it? If you have a point to make about the content of the NYT article, make it.

  • Bill

    @spartikus #78

    “And just because we are better off than most people on the planet (and we are) doesn’t mean we can’t rethink the way we do things.”

    In fact, we have to rethink the way we do things if we want to keep what we have. The conditions no longer exist that enabled the wealth creation and redistribution we have today. We are living longer and have greater demands on pension and medical systems. The pressure is increased with the delayed entry into the work force as young people take longer for their education and with declining birthrates.

    Takers want to see increased social entitlements while Makers want to keep more of what they produce with lower taxes. We can no longer afford the Welfare State and it will be a challenge to retain the entitlements already in place let alone create new ones. (like national day care) Similarly, it will be difficult for Makers to retain what they have let alone enjoy lower taxes.

  • Chris Keam

    From a AAA study released late last year:

    “Based on FHWA estimates, in 2009 dollars, the average cost of a fatality is $6,000,000 and the average cost of an injury is $126,000.”

    http://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2011_AAA_CrashvCongUpd.pdf

    No reason to suspect Canada is materially different.

    Last year, Ken Dryden pegged annual costs for daycare for the average Cdn family at $8000.

    Clearly we have the money to afford things such as a national day care policy, if we are willing to ‘rethink the way we do things”, such as abandoning silly ideas such as categorizing people in binary Maker/Taker codswallop and taking a long, hard, realistic look at where our money is really going.

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Richard @ 83

    I was not discussing the Rize project at all in my earlier comment, but rather something completely different so I am not sure how the context of your question was relevant.

    As for the Rize proposal quite frankly yes, I would rather see nothing go there and leave it as a park for public use than to have that go for height ‘money grab’ development that it is.

    There are plenty of options for development that can be constructed on this site that are less invasive to the Mt Pleasant neighbourhood and more conducive to the look and feel of the area while also providing homes and ammenities to the neighbourhood.

    The catch is the current Developer would have to take a profit loss but God forbid they do that in order to respect our communities wishes.

  • Chris Keam

    A park at the corner of Kingsway and Broadway wouldn’t be used. An intersection where twelve lanes of traffic converge isn’t the right place for such an amenity.

  • Bill Lee

    @Chris Keam // Mar 23, 2012 at 6:44 am #92

    And the baseballs would go out of bounds into traffic. Can’t have that.

    And what good is a park in our (intermittent?) rain?

  • Chris Keam

    Bill Lee:

    Many of your posts are informative and add much to the debate. Sadly #93 isn’t an example of same. Do you think a park at that corner is a good use of urban space? If so, why?

  • Duncan James

    I live in Victoria and I’d help pay to keep Vancouver as green as possible by building more rapid transit lines. It’s good for the city, which means it’s good for the province. I think the Port Mann problem was fixable without building a $800 million bridge. 12 lanes? That’s stupid! As for tolls, I don’t agree with them. Look at the Golden Ears Bridge. Another disaster! But good luck trying to train people from Surrey and Langley to ride transit. They’re addicted to their cars, not to mention big box stores and 5000 square foot homes.

    For us in Victoria, traffic is slowly getting worse, but homelessness is our biggest issue.