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NPA gives out internal poll numbers week before election: What do they mean?

November 11th, 2011 · 49 Comments

Poll stories are tricky, especially when those polls are coming from political parties rather than pollsters operating completely independently.

So what to think about the NPA poll splashed across the front page of the Sun today that says the NPA’s Suzanne Anton is closing the gap between her and Vision’s Gregor Robertson?

Here are my thoughts on what it means.

1. I have no doubt that the Occupy Vancouver situation is having an impact on voting choices for some city residents and that Suzanne Anton’s numbers have improved at various points since the camp started. There’s been heavy media coverage of the Occupy camp and a lot of negative public reaction to it. As well, the poll doesn’t seem that far off what I’ve been hearing all along about how many NPA council candidates might get elected. It says “on track for four,” — a little higher than the two or three I’ve been hearing, but not completely out of whack.

2. I have to wonder about the order of the poll’s questions.

Polling experts have always told me that a pollster should never ask any question before the one about voter intention, because it can have the effect of skewing the vote as you “prime” the pollee to think about a certain topic before answering. I understand the first question this poll asked was something like, “Do you think life in Vancouver is better or worse?” That’s a priming question that could have had an impact.

It also looks as though there was a second question before “who would you vote for,” with questions about whether the Vision administration has done a good or poor job and should be replaced. The first two questions in that set are the negative option (it should be replaced) and the second two are the positive. Again, seems like priming. CORRECTION: Jeff Lee posted the order of the poll questions after I wrote this. This second question was NOT asked before “who would you vote for.”

3. The polling that was released was done Nov. 3-5. Those were the three days with the most negative news about Occupy Vancouver. On Nov. 3, there was a non-fatal drug overdose. On Nov. 5, a young woman was found dead. That had to have affected people’s responses about OV and about the mayoral candidates. (I know from covering other campaigns that polling is often done on a daily basis so that parties can see the trends, not just a snapshot. If the NPA is doing rolling polls, it could have chosen the three worst days in order to highlight the most positive numbers for the party.)

4. Hamish Marshall, the pollster who did this, says the results are weighted to the last provincial election. I’d be curious to know what that means. BTW, Hamish used to be at Angus Reid and is a very experienced pollster, one whom I’ve relied on in the past.

5. The margin of error for the city sectors is very high, especially for the downtown region, where it’s 9 per cent. That’s an area with a lot of renters, a lot of disaffected Vision voters who may go for Neighbourhoods for a Sustainable Vancouver or stay home.

There are other things I could pick away at but I’ll leave it at that for now, except to say that I’ve done my own share of news stories about internal polls from parties that I’ve been criticized for. My hands are not clean on this issue and I’m not attacking my buddy, Jeff Lee, at the Sun. Just raising some thinking points.

In fact, I was trying to get this poll as well for weeks, but there was some kind of miscommunication between me and Norm Stowe at the NPA and Jeff got it instead of me. (Here it is, by the way, so you can do your own analysis.)

I did notice, though, that onetime Conservative strategist and commentator Norm Spector was critical of the Sun for running this internal poll all over its front page, a week before the election.

 

 

Categories: Uncategorized

  • Everyman

    A lot of people don’t pay attention to civic politics until its down to the wire. Its Vision’s misfortune that the Occupy camp is still going on in the crucial last week.

  • Julia

    Just like the NPAs misfortune that the Olympic Village appeared to be going sideways with no clear answers just before the last election.

    From my perspective, Occupy Vancouver is not the issue. It is the manner with which ALL types of crisis/problems are managed in Vancouver that is being highlighted.

    What sort of signal does this send when your police, fire, and local government appear ‘afraid’ to maintain the law for fear of reprisal.

    Sounds like a general invitation to do whatever you want – where ever you want without consequence.

    Is that the kind of city we want?

  • Hans Goldberg

    Well Julia I sure as hell do not want your kind of city.

  • Westender1

    Is there a “not” missing here?

    “It says “on track for four,” — a little higher than the two or three I’ve been hearing, but completely out of whack.”

  • Mark

    I saw that story on the Sun’s website before bed and was surprised at the unquestioning nature of the article and at the prominence given to it on the Sun’s website. You give much more specific detail than I’d considered, but aren’t we just in general ALWAYS meant to be extremely sceptical about any poll conducted for and released by a political party? I don’t think it was journalism’s finest hour…

  • Richard

    They mean that people need to get out and vote. It could be a close election so don’t stay home assuming your candidates will win.

  • G. de Auxerre

    Well Hans, we are sure we do not want this City to become ~your~ kind of hell.

    When the OccuParty people go to work, its all about destruction; civil destruction and societal destruction. In fact, destruction is so prevalent in their mindset, that most practice a good amount of self-destruction, which I support.

    All Julia – and the vast majority of citizens are desiring – is decent, human respect. When it can’t be self-sensed, or taught, it must be enforced. We voted for that, and we’re paying for that. Thank you very much.

    Come on Hans, search ‘Detroit” for your results of lack of respect and enforcement.

  • Rick

    I agree with Mark…the Sun looks like Pravda on the Pacific when it does this sort of thing. I hate to call anyone lazy but running a news release from a political party, company, government agency, etc is just plain lazy and wayyyyyyyy to much of that these days…

  • Michael D

    Interesting discussion. One thing Frances: Ashley died late on Saturday but the public did not find out until ealry Sunday. This was out of field by then.

    How do you think her death and the gong show at the church have affected the public?

  • Roger Kemble

    G. de Auxerre @ #7

    When the OccuParty people go to work, its all about destruction; civil destruction and societal destruction.

    Are you sure? are you not, sir, over the top hysterical?

    I mean. “civil destruction and societal destruction . . .

    These young people are seeking justified redress to corruption, of glaring inequalities and a fractional reserve banking system that is driving you into debt! Have you not noticed?

    . . . to a great extent it must be enforced.

    Enforced . . . ummmmm . . . not the Canadian way G. de!

    OCCUPY is the future.

    You are NOT!

  • Frances Bula

    @Ashlie’s body was discovered at 4:30 and it hits the news instantly like a bomb. I went back and checked and many news outlets did hits on it on the six o’clock news. But you’re right, some who were polled might not have heard of it, depending on the hours the polling was done. I know I’m usually polled in the evening.

    I think the death, the Occupy Vancouver response to it (hey, man, it’s not our fault, it’s society’s fault for making people want drugs) and the gong show at the church would have all intensified the negative public reaction to the camp. Some of that would spill over to the mayor, but not all.

    I’d be interested in knowing whether the city’s move to get an injunction swung some opinion back or whether people who judged it as negative continue to do so because they think he should have handled it better right from the start. I know I talked to an acquaintance that week who’s not very up on politics and she said, “Yeah, the camp is stupid. But the mayor’s cleaning it out, right?” Which is about the level of knowledge most people have.

  • Toowoozy

    G. de Auxerre that is exactly the over the top rhetoric that has plagued this whole escapade and that unfortunately a lot of the MM have grabbed a hold of.

    I personally feel the OV movement should vacate the AG and continue on with the momentum they had in trying to bring to together a wider spectrum of the population. But the portrayal of the OV movement has been more about hysteria then anything else.

    You speak of the destruction that the movement will bring, yet we have seen more destruction coming from a lot of over pampered ethically vacant Penn states students in defense of those covering up a child rape!

  • Everyman

    @Frances 11
    I have yet to read anything convincing explaining why the City needed an injunction at all, to enforce existing bylaws.

    It appears Halifax has just cleared out their Occucpy camp quite successfully:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/14-detained-as-halifax-orders-occupy-protesters-out-of-park/article2233555/

  • A Dave

    “Conservative strategist and commentator Norm Spector was critical of the Sun for running this internal poll all over its front page, a week before the election.”

    The most disheartening part about this might be that folks who will most likely be voting like Julia and GdA appear to be totally blind to the connection between Postmedia’s pathological plumping of the neo-conservative agenda and the original spirit behind the #occupy protests.

    How many undecided votes does this front page headline GUARANTEE the NPA, I wonder?

  • Frances Bula

    @Everyman. They need an injunction because the police here ask for it. I talked to former mayor Philip Owen, who was dealing with the protest camp around Woodward’s in his final days as mayor, and he said police insist on the city getting an injunction before they go in. Apparently, it’s partly because protesters have a tendency to sue police after they’re dragged off and it’s a good legal defence for police to be able to say they went in with the backing of the court, not just because they felt like knocking heads that night.

  • Frances Bula

    @A Dave. I don’t actually think having the Sun run the poll so prominently is a sign of anything and it has benefits for both sides. It can mobilize Vision voters, who might have thought the election was in the bag and will now run out to vote. And it will mobilize NPA voters, who might have thought Suzanne didn’t have a chance but now that they think she will, they’ll also run out to vote.

    I have to point out again that I, too, was trying to get this poll and it was only because of a mix-up on my part that Jeff got it first. I would have asked some unaffiliated pollster to explain the impact of that first question on the subsequent results, but I can guarantee you the Globe too would have been interested in the impact of the Occupy camp on people’s voting intentions. (Yes, I realize that maybe the problem is the Globe is also part of the evil MSM. In our defence, we ran a lengthy opinion piece from an Occupy Van protester this week on why the camp should stay.)

  • Everyman

    @Frances Bula 15
    Thanks for clearing that up. I must admit that if that’s the VPD’s stance I find it dangerous. It implies that threats from criminals prevent them from acting in a timely manner.

    With regards to polling, wouldn’t Barb Justason have one planned for the coming week?

  • Brad

    With a 6% spread between Anton and Robertson, this snoozefest has now turned into an apparent horse race.

    Both Abington Resarch and Justason Market Intelligence had Anton at ~32% in their respective October polls, both with a ~600 sample size.

    It’s also apparent that the trend lines and momentum are in favour of Anton. More importantly, since only 30% – 35% will vote, these findings also further skew in favour of Anton:

    1. Homeowners are both more likely to vote and skew in favour of Anton;

    2. Older demographics are more likely to vote and skew in favour of Anton;

    3. Vision has a higher number of potential vote switchers;

    Those findings were also corroborated by Barb Justason in her October poll – “Robertson and Vision support is skewed younger and NPA and Anton appeal to TRADITIONAL voters, 45 and older.”

    Other anecdotal evidence is the proliferation of NPA lawn signs on private property all over the city compared to 2008 – both on the west side and east side.

    OTOH, Vision lawn signage seems to be quite sparse, especially compared to 2008.

    It certainly will be an upset if Anton takes the crown. I even have a hard time believing same.

  • Bobbie Bees

    All I can say is I wish there were more independents running. I wouldn’t touch the Anti-renter / private owner club known as the NSV. The official motto of that party should be “I’ve got my view Jack, and don’t block it with a tall building like the one I’m living in. I was here first RENTERS be damned!””
    Every time I think about voting for Gregor I throw up a little in my mouth, but that pales in comparison to having that opportunist ding-bat Anton as mayor.
    Other than that I’m staying clear away from NPA/VISION/NSV members.

  • mo money no problems

    Wonder how other media outlets will respond to NPA’s continued favoritism to the Vancouver Sun. This is the second time they have given an exclusive to them; when Anton announced she was running for Mayor and gave them the exclusive it infuriated global, nw and others who she had promised would get it too.

    Not a good move with one week to go

  • DermotF

    Forum Research from Toronto is telephone polling tonight on similar questions: Who are you voting for: Susan Anton or Gregor Robertson? Do you approve or disapprove of how the current council is dealing with OV? Who did you vote for last time Gregor Robertson or Peter Ladner? What is your gender: male or female? How old are you? Don’t know who they are polling for, maybe the Globe or CTV?

  • Everyman

    @Bobbie Bees 19
    What about COPE? IMHO it was a bad idea for them to ink another deal with Vision. There are many voters who are not happy with the two main parties close ties to developers and a sense that the middle class is being priced out of Vancouver. . COPE could have capitalized on that had they run a full slate.

  • Frances Bula

    @Brad. Those are all great points. I did point out in my earlier Justason story that NPA voters are more likely to vote. Someone else has pointed out to me that the support among homeowners for Vision has dropped noticeably since the last election.

    I still wonder about whether that first question “Do you think the city is doing all right or is seriously off track” has an influence on the subsequent answers.

  • Brad

    Frances, that’s also a good point as the initial poll question (how it is phrased) can act akin to a “push” question.

    Nevertheless, the~ 32% finding for Anton by both Abington and Justason in their October polls might provide a hint as to the question’s ultimate impact.

    I know that Evi Mustel’s provincial polls always have the first question phrased as “What is the top issue of concern in BC today?” prior to their party preference question.

    Angus Reid Strategies also had a poll one year ago on the Vancouver municipal scene. I was hoping that they would have come out with one this election. Fingers crossed.

    As I stated in my earlier post, I sense some political shift going on but I still expect that Robertson will win with a VV majority – albeit by a narrower margin from 2008 and the October Justason poll.

  • JamieLee

    I just got called from Forum research at 8:10 pm tonight. As Dermot stated the questions above are correct. I must admit I played with my answers a bit.

  • George

    Jamie Lee@24
    what has Frances started…now we are all playing with pollsters…I think Frances just crushed an industry..LOL

  • Silly Season

    @ Brad.

    I can confirm that, anecdotaly, at least, that there are many “swing voters” that voted Vision–but who may well be heading over to the NPA.

    This “swing vote” (a term very much used in American elections) is something that has not beentraditionally explored very much at any level in Canadian politics.

    So, a single example (so not statistically relevent, but still..). I have friends, a couple, 45+. Savvy, entrepeneurial types, he is from Europe, she is from the Far East.

    Both from what we would call “socialist” based countries or countries that were ruled by despots and therefore both concerned about both fiscal as well as social issues (she was a student activist in her country).

    Also, federal Liberal voters. Cherry-picked the civic councillor,s in the past. Not Sam Sullivan fans, and decided to go to Vision, regardless of regime change.

    You can imagine my surprise (ok, not so much) when she told me they were going to vote for Suzanne this time. Why?

    ‘Lack of leadership” over several issues, was the reply.

    That explanation (or any other) may fit in with traditional swing voters, who are not party members at the local level, and tend to park their vote, AS A PROTEST VOTE, against the government of the day.

    Keep in mind that we have gone several elections in a row (3? 4?) where the incumbent party has received the boot. I credit swing voters—not party members—with deciding on who rules this city.

    So, this patttern may continue this year. Who are the swing voters? And how many are there?

    I don’t know about the people who we have heard “stayed home” re: NPA support in the last election.

    Voter turnout was 30% last time. If we see even a few percentage points up from that—whether old NPA support returning to the fold or the swing voter types, I think that those will be of benefit to the NPA.

  • Silly Season

    In other words, Gregor’s support can be considered “softer’ than Suzanne’s, based on last elections “swingers’.

    Tires were kicked, people hopped on board last time–and some haven’t liked the ride.

  • Silly Season

    Just spotted this. Sun’s Jeff Lee’s blog, with some answers to people asking about the validity of NPA poll as well as the questions, in the order they were asked.

    http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2011/11/11/npa-poll-questions-and-the-order-they-were-asked/

    My assessment of Vision’s answer that they don’t give out internal polls: hogwash. They will if they have something to gain by doing so.

    I can see that the Sun is saying that they would be delighted to run a poll from Vision by early next week.

    So, will Vision give one up—or won’t they? Or will they deliver a poll to another media outlet?

    Regardless, with Jeff’s assessment of the NPA poll, it appears that it was the right move for that party to release their news.

    🙂

  • Terry Martin

    @Bobby Bees. Before you go off spouting about NSV you might look at our policies,affordablerental is very important to us,in fact we support NOT allowing council to waive a portion of affordable rental housing in large projects that have been up-zoned.Such as the 1114 unit project that both Vision and NPA recently waived a potential 200 units of affordable rental housing when they allowed Wall corp an extra 800 units on a development,while spending Wall corps $ on their campaigns without requiring even 1 unit of rental housing,theytalk affordable rental housing but when given the opportunity for it,theyas much say,it’s ok we don’t need it.NSV would move a motion to word the bylaw so that it is written in stone!We don’t take developer $ so that we are not in the position of owing favors thereby avoiding the “conflict of interest”that both Vision and NPA find themselves in

  • Gölök Z Buday

    If polls asked down the ballet, and not vis,npa, other then would people have more to think about and
    would it show Anton or Gregor where they are? Polls are designed more to make us forget our options.

    What do you think? (asked civic lee by e-mail)

  • Bill Smolick

    There’s an NPA candidate with close ties to the Vancouver Sun–George Affleck–and it was obvious to me from day one that they’d have an easy time getting whatever story they wanted to push to that rag featured prominently.

    As for the poll? I don’t believe its results mean anything to any thinking voter .The problem is the vast array of voters who don’t think but just vote. There’s too many of those people: they vote on name recognition only, and not on taking a critical look at the people running.

  • Fred

    Frances,

    Why don;t you just admit you are voting for Gregor because he’s cute?

    Good a reason as any.

  • Roger Kemble

    When I lived in Mexico City I had an insight into the drastic outcome when elections bring change.

    1998 Cuauhtémoc Cárdenas (yes, the son of famous Lázaro) became mayor of Mexico City. His PRD swept the long reigning PRI out: swept is an understatement!

    I had a friend who was a local official appointed by the PRI that had reigned for . . . I’m talking +/- seventy years.

    She was unceremoniously dumped.

    I helped clean out her desk. She wasn’t a high official, she didn’t have a private office.

    I saw the effects sin embargo of the change.

    She was in a “bull pen” with, I dunno, maybe twenty desks.

    The whole place was a rout! Change of guard, big time!

    Whatever the outcome, we won’t have the pleasure of seeing anything like that in Vancouver after November.

    Great blog you have there Buday I have it bookmarked!

  • Silly Season

    @Bill S #32

    I agree, for the most part. The election cycle is very short in Vancouver and most people could’nt name 3 sitting councillors.

    So, In my simple assessment you are either:

    1) a party member (and you vote slate)

    2) an engaged voter (not so many of those), who has an issue or two, has a perception about what they would like to see and will check out the candidates, and vote for those who fit their world view (they tend to be non-slate voters and will cherry pick the candidate lists) or

    3) an enraged voter, who will vote contrarian to the sitting party because a feeling of frustration (?)about one or a variety of subjects, leads them to vote that way.

  • Silly Season

    Sorry, forgot the most important one!

    4) a disengaged citizen, who for a variety of reasons, doesn’t exercise your franchise at all. That would be about 70% of our elible voters.

    This to me is one of the scandals of our lazy democracy. I hear “leaders” so called, or their surogates, bemoaning the fact that eligble voters don’t come out and vote.

    Crocodile tears! Political parties really only want members to decide the elections. Democracy and public engagement is a nuisance to them.

    It will be interesting to see how they engage with community and neighbourhood groups in the future since several events this past year, lead by citizen groups, put democracy at City Hall under the microscope.

    If these idealogues were sincere in their calls for a more engaged voter, there would be an educational component on voting, voters right, citizenship duties, etc. in our schools, as well as a concerted effort via advertising and other mechanics in order to “get out the vote”.

    Not holding my breath on that one.

  • A Dave

    @Frances #16

    I will respectfully disagree on two counts. The vast majority of us only see the Sun through the glass of a newsbox on our way to work. The headlines are all we read, and in this case, I think it is especially misleading, as we don’t know that it’s an internal poll with leading questions (even most readers probably won’t get the significance of that). A very, very poor standard by the Sun’s editorial board.

    Secondly, I can’t see this change Vision’s strategy much at all, but it sure gives a boost to the NPA volunteer effort, which was probably fairly low morale up until about a week ago. Now they gonna be gangbusters, right!

    And please, I have never said anything like “evil MSM”. Lazy, biased, compliant, unethical, fear-mongering, easily coerced, corporatist, for sure. But I have never called them “evil.” (However, I do think you are “wicked”, in the very best sense of the word.)

    BTW, as one of the few households with a land-line and no call display, we’ve had pollsters from both parties calling almost daily. We hang up on robo calls, but I have had one human from each party poll me in the last 2 weeks.

    When the NPA asked Anton or Robertson?, I answered “Ladner”. After a pause, she politely told me Anton was the NPA candidate, so I said, “Undecided.”

    I answered the Visionista with an emphatic, “Robertson.”

    I am also classed as a single female, 18-24 years old, who makes over $100,000 every two or three years, much to my partner’s chagrin.

  • A Dave

    “I can see that the Sun is saying that they would be delighted to run a poll from Vision by early next week.”

    What if Vision released an internal poll to The Sun with similarly leading questions, and got a result such as, 58% Robertson, 22% Anton.

    How would THAT headline look, I wonder, coming 4 days after this one?

    And what would we think of the Sun’s editorial decision, then?

  • Toowoozy

    This is great:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/WeBackTheJuiceMan#p/a/u/0/sMNuNncVaXM

  • JamieLee

    @George, hate to tank an industry but does polling really do anything for politics?

  • Jeff Lee

    To Bill Smolick @ 32:
    I really don’t know what you’re smoking, but you couldn’t be more wrong about Affleck. Don’t know him, other than he is in PR, and I haven’t dealt with him. If he’s got any relationship with people at the Sun, it’s news to me.
    I’ve been wondering why I haven’t seen more of a profile of him. He may have a name starting with A, but it doesn’t help much if people don’t recognize you.

    And to A Dave @ 38, you can bet your biffy that if Vision released an internal poll, I’d write that story too, regardless of the results. It has to meet the criteria The Sun has set (you can see them on my blog at http://ow.ly/7rAec)
    My understanding is that there are at least two more polls out in the field. We’re not running any poll results after Wednesday or Thursday. But if we get those results before then, I’d imagine we’ll run them. Regardless of who it shows is in the lead.

  • RossK

    Mr. Lee–

    And/or the ‘lede’?

    (which, in my opinion at least, is the real issue here)

    .

  • IanS

    @Frances #15″

    “They need an injunction because the police here ask for it.”

    The police do ask for it, though it’s really not necessary. I rather suspect that, if matters went ugly while city workers were removing bylaw violations, the police would step in regardless of whether there was an injunction.

    Having said that, an injunction does serve a number of purposes.

    Firstly, as you say, it could provide a measure of legal protection if one or more civil actions are filed. Having said that, I don’t think it will provide much protection (if any). An injunction will not protect criminal or tortious conduct.

    Secondly, an injunction will put the weight of the Court behind the City’s actions, thus likely diffusing the political downside of taking action. Viewed in that light, it almost seems like the City is handing off the the political football to the Courts.

    Finally, the injunction renders disobedience a much more serious proposition. I’m not certain what the penalties are for bylaw infractions, but I expect they’re nowhere near as serious as the the potential penalties for contempt of court. In effect, the City is seeking almost to criminalize disobedience with the City bylaws.

    Of course, there is also a downside to seeking an injunction . Every time you walk into a Court and put a matter before the judge, you lose some control over the outcome. As we’ve seen in this case, the Court has given an adjournment, subject to conditions. If that continues, or the Court refuses to issue the injunction (which is, after all, extraordinary relief), the City will be effectively prohibited from removing the tents unless things change.

    So, to the extent the City really does want to remove the tents (as opposed to appearing to be taking action in the run up to the election), the move could backfire. Of course, once the election is over, I wouldn’t be surprised if Vision’s enthusiasm for enforcing the bylaws on the Occupiers will wane.

  • Bobbie Bees

    The Sun and Province? They still publish those?
    How quaint.

  • A Dave

    @Jeff Lee

    “you can bet your biffy that if Vision released an internal poll, I’d write that story too, regardless of the results. It has to meet the criteria The Sun has set”.

    I think you miss the point, Jeff. Of course you’d write the story, as would Frances. I don’t have an issue with you reporting these polls.

    But would the editors splash it across the front page 4 days later, if the results were wildly different?

    Even if they were +/- 10% different, would they splash it across the front page, and write a headline claiming Anton’s support suddenly eroded again? I think they’d be wiping a lot of egg off their faces for taking a tenuous, calculated risk that blew up in their faces.

    And sure, the NPA pollster didn’t ask a push question as bald-faced as the one about McCain’s illegitimate black love child, but, however subtle the push question, the effect still skews the result for undecided voters. And you, of all people, should know this. Yet there is no mention of the push question in either the original story or the blog post you link to.

    Not coincidentally, there is no criteria regarding push polls in the Sun’s policy. It’s an ass-covering policy at best.

    So one also has to wonder why you didn’t spell out the issue of the “leading” question in either story, and the potential it has to skew the results?

    I just think it is a really irresponsible editorial decision to splash this poll across the front page, and apparently others like Stowe do too. The fact that you are taking this much time to defend your story suggests that you may be feeling a little uncomfortable about it, too.

  • Gölök Z Buday

    Polls aren’t reporting, it’s just filler until a fact comes in. It’s easier than asking questions.
    Affleck, all I know is he has some problem with me. Also I did see a video where he said his back ground was in journalism.
    Toowoozy, do people give a damn outside the country side about Farmer’s Markets? It’s like the damn bike thing. It’s a city.
    — Gölök

  • david hadaway

    Well, having just walked by the house in question I think there are perhaps two sides to this. It’s clearly fairly well maintained and while, to my mind, eight would be a squeeze it’s not extreme overcrowding.

    Given the uncertain returns of other investments it’s easy to understand why people are attracted tol real estate, which may not give a great yield at current prices but at least offers some hope of capital growth. especially if you don’t have a tax funded pension lined up and aren’t part of the 1%.

    However, those doing this should not ignore the fact that their actions have consequences. There seems to be a severe dearth of information here but in the UK the effects of ‘buy to let’ are well known. Seen as a way of increasing rental stock without returning to the ideologically forbidden days of local government building rental housing, this was given active encouragement through favourable tax treatment, which also exists here. It was also a very nice subsidy to the already well off from society as a whole and a profitable new market for the banks. It has been suggested that as many as one in three house purchase in London in recenet years have been of this type.

    The consequences were and are to inflate property prices, to destabilize the market, to increase private debt and exposure to negative equity (also degrading the quality of bank assets) and, last but not least, to increase rents, decrease security of tenure and permanently exclude a lot of families from any hope of owning a home.

    I’m sure many will disagree with this uncomfortable analysis. It isn’t a crime – but if it were it wouldn’t be victimless.

  • david hadaway

    Damn, that was supposed to go in under the Sign Wars story!

  • Kevin

    Honestly, we’d be better off if there were no poll results at all. If its true that it can sway an election we are all better off not having any. Let the parties keep conducting their internal polls, but leave them that way, internal.