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New development in older neighbourhoods sparks new-style protest groups, questions about how to assess community opinion

October 16th, 2013 · 146 Comments

My feature piece last weekend is the beginning of a longer look at the anti-development groups, tactics, and messes around the Lower Mainland. People think Vancouver is the only place where residents are increasingly tense about new development. It’s not, as my story makes clear. (And, after I published, a group in Port Moody also contacted me to get their name added to the list.)

What also seems clear is that it’s increasingly difficult for city politicians and planners, for developers, for media, and for general residents to figure out what their community really thinks of new development.

Looking forward to the reasoned debate I know will follow here on this issue.

FRANCES BULA

VANCOUVER — The Globe and Mail

Published 

Last updated 

Glenn MacKenzie didn’t pay much attention at first to the stories in the local newspaper and the information boards at the mall about a plan to create a dense “town centre” near his house.

From what he did see, it looked like a pleasant mountain village, sort of like Whistler. Nothing that would disrupt his comfortable life in tranquil, tree-dominated Lynn Valley, the North Vancouver neighbourhood where he has lived for 24 years.

But when he heard that a developer had proposed towers of 22 and 14 storeys in that town centre, Mr. MacKenzie worried about even more traffic in an area with only two main arteries and steady traffic jams. He worried about the feel of his neighbourhood being wrecked. He sprang into action.

“I treated it like a political campaign, a full-blown, partisan electoral campaign,” says the 58-year-old high-school teacher, who used to work on campaigns with the Social Credit party.

He and a group of like-minded friends put up a website, showing a menacing picture of the Burnaby skyline around Metrotown with its Etch-a-Sketch line of towers. They delivered flyers to hundreds of doors. They started an online petition. They packed meetings with supporters, waving signs demanding: “No High Rises.”

In the end, they forced their council this week to scale back the size of the whole centre, lowering building heights and reducing the maximum number of units.

Mr. MacKenzie and his friends are typical of the new kind of take-no-prisoners anti-development activists who have emerged across the Lower Mainland, battling casinos and coach houses, towers and duplexes, in an effort to preserve the character of their neighbourhoods.

They use the Internet and political-style slogans. At the extreme points, they accuse politicians of corruption and developers of worse. They suggest that planners and engineers are either lying or too shortsighted to figure out the consequences of thousands of new condos. They pore over every number and fact, looking for an inconsistency or an inaccuracy.

The most dedicated campaigners believe the pressure for development has nothing to do with making room for more people in a growing region. They believe it’s a case of politicians favouring developers who have given them campaign money or, at best, politicians desperately seeking ways to increase revenue that can close the gap in city budgets.

“They’re squeezed for money, and density is an easy way to get more money,” Mr. MacKenzie says. The flip side, of course, is the cost of more garbage pickup, road maintenance, parks, libraries, police and fire.

Vancouver has seen the largest of the anti-development wildfires burning up the landscape the past several months. The city has been grappling with multiple groups that oppose both overall neighbourhood plans – four of them are in the works – and specific projects. The opposition, though relatively small so far, has been so virulent and effective that many wonder if it will be enough to topple Mayor Gregor Robertson and his Vision team. Two weeks ago, Vancouver’s council watered down and delayed some of the area plans.

But Vancouver is not the only city experiencing vociferous opposition to development. Besides the District of North Vancouver, there have been similar uprisings in neighbouring West Vancouver, the City of North Vancouver (a separate entity from the district) and White Rock in the past year. Two years before that, councils in Burnaby and Coquitlam saw dozens of people come out to meetings, protesting large projects in Brentwood and Austin Heights.

The level of angst across the region is measurable. A Mustel Group poll this summer showed three of the top five issues people are the most dissatisfied about are connected to growth pressures. One-third of people said they’re unhappy to very unhappy about “planning and future development” and “management of traffic.” Only 10 per cent were very satisfied. A quarter said they were not impressed with “community engagement on projects and initiatives.”

“I can’t recall ever this level of dissatisfaction before,” says Evi Mustel, the owner. “And I think it is everywhere.”

Metro Vancouver has been steadily growing by 40,000 people a year. For a long time, that growth has been absorbed by new subdivisions, new towers in designated clusters, such as Burnaby’s Metrotown and downtown Vancouver, or whole new communities built on former industrial land. All those options are shrinking, as that land is built out or taken out of the game by regional efforts to prevent industrial and agricultural zones from being chewed up.

Metro Vancouver is projected to add at least another million people within the next three decades. A recently approved regional growth strategy is requiring each municipality to figure out a way to accommodate that.

“We haven’t seen this [kind of resident opposition] for the last 30 or 40 years because there were other sites to develop in the region, mostly industrial,” says Ann McAfee, a former Vancouver planning director who now works as an international consultant. “But now developers are looking elsewhere, looking for large properties and looking for a lot of older people who might be the immediate market.”

The solution to how to handle all this seems obvious to the vocal opponents: Councils and developers should consult more with residents.

But that’s easier said than done. It’s hard for politicians to figure out what public opinions really are. The District of North Vancouver started a massive consultation plan with residents four years ago to decide where new housing and commercial activity should be concentrated and what it should look like. Hundreds of people participated.

Dan Ellis, a retired engineer in Lynn Valley, was one. He and the majority of people who’d gotten involved supported a plan that would see the district develop four dense town centres, including the one at Lynn Valley. They believed the district needed to allow new kinds of housing, so that young families and seniors could live in the area without having to maintain or pony up for expensive, single-family housing. Then, a year ago, when the development company, Bosa, came to Lynn Valley with a specific project, Mr. MacKenzie and his group went into action, eventually winning their campaign.

Mr. Ellis said there appears to be a fundamental flaw in the way resident consultation works, even though the North Van planners tried to get people to participate. “When cities go out seeking engagement about change, they tend to attract forward thinkers. It’s hard to engage those who aren’t in favour of change.”

But when specific projects come up, a new group comes out, often claiming they weren’t consulted. They’re so vociferous – and these days, so Internet-powered and media-amplified – that moderates, who were okay with the original plan, become hesitant about showing support.

Ms. McAfee, who managed many tough community consultations in Vancouver, found that, typically, about 20 per cent of residents were dead set against any change. But up to 80 per cent were willing to support new kinds of housing and growth, under certain conditions. There had to be a discussion about who it would benefit. They needed to feel they had choices on where and how high. And they needed to get something in return: new parks, shopping district, libraries, daycare, art spaces.

Vancouver is having trouble, she believes, because politicians didn’t talk about a big vision for the city’s future, relying instead on arguments about how density is good for the environment. There “didn’t seem to be much about the new goodies that would come with it.” And, she says, “staff or council seem to feel they know where the density should go.”

That allowed the 20 per cent who are steadfastly against all change to pick up support from a wider group. So, while the Vancouver opposition includes a vehement core, it also includes people such as Albert Leung.

Mr. Leung, a former operations manager for the photo company Jostens, has become one of the leaders of a group in Marpole opposed to the draft area plan that came out of the city. As in North Van, his group only sprang up after a whole other set of residents had been participating in city consultations for a couple of years.

“I think we, as a group of citizens, see growth and progress is a good thing,” says Mr. Leung. He has little time for some of the scare stories circulating about the impact of a new plan. They want to see a detailed traffic plan. They want to hear what kind of benefits the community might get.

“We would like to know more,” he says. “We would like to know what is the projected growth for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years.”

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  • jenables

    Npa lite is what people USED to call vision, not TEAM, Waltyss. I don’t know why you would say that.
    Can you give me an example of when the people in these neighborhoods were heard?

  • Jay

    I can see thing are starting to spiral, but I wanted to add one more thing.

    Here’s a snippet from a CBC news article dated July 25, 2000:

    “Residents living along Vancouver’s Arbutus corridor have won their battle against Skytrain. West-side residents turned out in force earlier this month to tell Vancouver City Council they didn’t want an elevated rapid transit line running through their neighbourhood.

    More than 100 people signed up to speak at public hearings, with almost all of them opposed to the rapid transit plan.”
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/no-skytrain-along-arbutus-1.239780

    Because of the potential of the rapid transit right of way (which we are very fortunate to have in a very developed city), the Arbutus corridor, much like the Cambie corridor, has the capacity to handle a larger than usual population. This is the perfect place to shape new growth.

    With the various neighborhood groups protesting even 6 to 8 story developments, growth will be very slow. It’s easy to predict that there would be an out cry (as there has been in the past) if rapid transit was proposed, once again, along the Arbutus right of way.

  • Frank Ducote

    Jenables – I believe that was NDP Lite (not NPA…).

    Jay – thanks for finding the clip WRT the infamous creme de la creme moment.

  • brilliant

    Developing Stongs might help the dreary retail strip that is Dunbar. A stranger would be forgiven for thinking Main or Cambie was the higher priced area.

  • Richard

    @brilliant

    Brilliant! We actually agree on this!

  • jenables

    Fd, whilst googling pretty much all them were referencing vision before vision”outgrew”the label. I’m referring to the last five years though. I also have never seen the similarities between the ndp and vision other than Gregor, but he was rooting for the three-peat anyways. I did question Libby regarding vision as she had endorsed them, but that was more to show support for cope as I understand it.

  • Voony

    back to the topic of about how to assess opinion.

    Here we have Aaron Jasper, coming with a “done deal” on Kits, and qualifying opponnet of NPA hack.
    A week later, we have Sarah Blyth stating that, finally no, what they havd approved on Oct 7th was an “untrue rumor”, and the “chalk line draw on the grass” was in no way representing the approved path…The Park board staff had said otherwise a day before…people can go with a GPS to verify…

    People was a bit confused on what was going on,
    and sunday, Constance Barnes came to “listen” and announce an advisory commitee giving voice to the community to choose the color of the bike racks, and obviously assess the community opinion on it and reinsure it on good motive of the board
    (“we didn’t do wrong but our staff lied to us on the consultation process. how I could know it wasn’t? I leave as far as 2 block from here!”)

    Monday, she and Sarah Blyth agreed that it was in fact ”a mob of retirees loitering outside the Boathouse” with “obsolete pastime like picnicking” , using an “over the top rhetoric”…

    The “mob of retiree” has apparently a twitter account, (@savekitsbeach) , where they spell message like it:

    @ryewhiz well I’m sure you’ll agree bikes are great. So can we put this on section of the bike lane on Arbutus & remove the parked cars?

    Obviously, the bike lobby is all up in arm at those extremists suggesting to suppress street parking, and call them “nimby” if not even “fascist” one…

    Against every odd… we end up with this surrealist situation where the bike lobby is defending, agressively parking, to impose its favorite pet project.

    It is what I call the robforidsation of the Vancouver Bike Lobby:
    http://voony.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/the-disturbing-bike-lane-trend-in-vancouver/

    On the case of the park commissioners (isn’it the reason why Penny Ballem, cam with a mental illness startegy?). It eventually illustrates on a specific case the problem, many Vancouverites has

    On the media treatment of the affair: Voice of reason are lost in the reporting process.
    Media frame the story on line drawn by the Politics (they need to fit in the framed story: the ugly old nimby vs the gentil cyclist, and opinion need to fit in 140 char max!)
    Since offer of compromise and constructive dialogue are treated with contempt by the ruling party, all that tend to antagonize people..

  • Richard

    @voony

    What many don’t realize is that the planned route is already a reasonable compromise. People are currently allowed to cycle all the way along the beach. While ideally, bikes would continued to be allowed along the beach, in the interest of reducing conflicts and increasing everyone’s safety, the bike path is routed away from the water where it is really busy. It is routed further away from the playground than the current path.

    Unfortunately, some want to force people on bikes on to an uninteresting route away from the water that no one will likely use. They will continue to cycle along the current path and the issues will not be solved.
    http://richardcampbell.org/2013/10/18/kits-beach-bike-path-safer-for-everyone/

  • John Geddes

    #108
    Richard,
    I believe the point of the recent input has been that the path need no go right thru the middle of the park and that it could be better routed along the edge (much like the current path in front of Kits Pool. I ride this route a lot in the summer and would have no problem in being “away from the water” for a block or two. The whole segregated bike lane mantra has gotten way out of hand. One of Vancouver’s biggest bike assets is our network of quiet residential streets that in many cases parallel major routes. In the past, there were the favoured choice for many of our existing bike routes and they work just fine — even for inexperienced cyclists. Case in point — West 3rd. Last time I rode the section from Alma to MacDonald I met two moving vehicles — both going about 10 mph.

  • Chris Keam

    Snippets of actual conversations I’ve had:

    “I didn’t get what all the fuss was about, now I see why people like them.”
    – woman on Central Valley Greenway at Clark Drive during last summer’s bike to work week (first day riding her bike to work)

    “Wow, this is so much safer. I don’t feel scared of the cars.”
    – my daughter, a couple summers back – Burrard Bridge bike lane

    “Oh, I love the bike lanes”
    – Young woman cyclist recently arrived (2 yrs ago) from Ecuador, at Kits protest last Sunday, when told what the issue being protested was.

    I find the roads around Kits/Vanier Park in summer are quite busy and often drivers are talking on their phones, looking for parking, and driving aggressively in that search. I haven’t heard a compelling argument against making a safer, less circuitous route through this area, and certainly not the current rationales, which seem to center on things like families picnicking, which let’s face it, is mostly a summertime, nice day activity. That can be as little as a dozen weekends a year in a rainy summer.

  • Everyman

    Back to the original topic: as a house-owner I get tired of being called a NIMBY just becasue I don’t welcome a six story building looming over my back yard. Like most of my fellow owners, I have put a lot of time and money into my home. I have also found a much stronger sense of community in my SFH neighbourhood than in any apartment or condo complex I’ve lived in.

  • Voony

    Chris Keam:

    …and the rational to insist to go thru the picknick area is?

    …the path is busy “as little as a dozen weekends a year in a rainy summer”, so we need a new one,…

    Now, I see you also misrepresent position of people having issue with bike lane in the middle of the park…

    It is not a question to be for or against bike lane in general, but of bike lane location:
    they propose a bike lane on the edge of park,…exactly like done at English bay…and Beach ave is otherwise more busy than Arbutus.
    (e.g here: http://voony.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/the-disturbing-bike-lane-trend-in-vancouver/)

    I haven’t heard a single compelling argument why that is not possible, but only people like you apparently do, dismissing activities like picnicking and insisting to go thru the middle of park, just because they assume their pleasure is more worthy than the one of other.

  • Richard

    @voony

    The path already goes through the picnic area. May be a couple of picnic tables will have to be moved from one awesome location to
    another just as awesome location. The park is large. There are plenty of places that are great to picnic under the trees or not.

    The path will not impact the enjoyment of those picnicking in the park. Stop pretending it will.

  • rph

    @Voony #112. Perhaps one of the reasons why the proposed bike path was routed through the park, and closer to the existing pedestrian/bike route, is that if the path was built too far away then some (or many) would still choose to bike on the path closer to the water and the views.

    That being said I still do not agree on bisecting grass space with asphalt if it can be avoided. When someone is not doing an “activity” on it, it is also nice to be able to have passive space where your eyes can wander over trees, gardens, a toddler chasing a leaf or a bug, or a squirrel gathering food. I know we have to accommodate the needs of all, but it is nice to have a small respite from the whiz of bikes, and puffing of joggers.

  • Richard

    @voony

    You also need to ride the whole bike path from Stanley Park to Burrard Bridge. It starts along the water near the pool then moves away to along Beach to avoid the busy section by the Boathouse. It then moves back to along the water by Sunset Beach. The entire path has great views of the water with the exception of by the Boathouse.

    The planned bike path is very much like this. You are proposing to route bikes away from the water for long sections where there is no valid reason to do so.

    Please stop cherry picking from a segment of that path to try and defend your point.

  • my two bits

    @ Everyman 111

    You’re worried about 6 stories looming over your property? Lucky you!

    Try east van where nothing less of 14 stories x 3 (and 22 and up) will do. I would love to trade my towers for your problem with 6 stories!

  • Voony

    To assess the impact of path on pick nicker,

    people should assess what makes a good pick nick site, like this one:

    http://blog.cafefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/le-dejeuner-sur-l-herbe-128_3839.jpg

    a good view, but then why people don’t pick nick at Hadden Park?

    a nice back drop, with birds singing in the tree providing some shade… so far adding a bike path looks benign…

    but why people walk away from the path, and other pick nickers?

    social distance! (that is what express rph@113)

    Adding a path in a narrow park (bike or not), distract all that…suddenly you can’t be away anymore of the brouhaha of one path without be exposed to the one of another…

    you end up with a “median”, useful only for dog owner…

  • Richard

    @voony

    Have you ever been to Haddon Park? If people want to picnic away from the paths and crowds, there is plenty of spaces for them to do that. The bike path will not impact that at all.

  • Joe Just Joe

    This illustrates my issues with the current way of doing things at city hall lately. Most people are supportive of bike lanes, and developments.
    People want to be heard and consulted with. While you will never make everyone happy people take solace in being part of the eventually solution. The status quo of planning lately really appears to be pitting sides against each other instead of with each other.
    I don’t have a solution to fix things but know enough to know this isn’t working and we need to change things.

  • Nelson100

    @Bill Lee 40

    Looks like no one has an answer to your very relevant question as to where this 40,000/year statistic comes from. I’ve been questioning this for some time. I believe it originates directly from the development industry, a vital part of their PR effort to keep the development ATM machine operating. Reality and spin are on separate trajectories in Vancouver. Despite the apparent onslaught of millions of people and lack of rentals, every second building in my West End neighbourhood seems to have apartments available and to be struggling to rent them. There is a decent looking building a block away that has held rental open houses for six months and just can’t seem to rent out a one bedroom with a balcony. The development industry has invested lots of money to convince us that millions of people are moving here, that we have no more land, that tower developments are green (even though they are glass and air conditioned) and that anyone who opposes towers is somehow socially irresponsible. It is interesting that the term NIMBY term in other cities means a person who opposes something undesirable but necessary for society in their neighbourhood (say a fire station or prison halfway house). In Vancouver, the development industry has successfully spun the term NIMBY to mean anyone opposing any development, with the underlying implication that all developments are beneficial to society, astonishing when you think about it. After many years of this, Vancouverites are collectively realizing they’ve been had, and the push back we see all over the Lower Mainland is reflective of this.

  • Ned

    Richard @ all
    Don’t they call you The BEST Propaganda Man anymore? They should. It fits. Like a shoe. Or a glove.

  • Roger Kemble

    Looks like no one has an answer to your very relevant question as to where this 40,000/year statistic comes from.

    Nelson100 @ #120. Check out #18

  • Bill Lee

    @Ned // Oct 24, 2013 at 11:43 am #121

    Yes, and how did Richard Austin Campbell get an ORG designation? See #108.

    They seem to have a lot of time on their bike-gloved hands.
    And are now to be paid according to the BCCC AGM this weekend (bccc.bc.ca/agm13/ ) where a Richard Austin Campbell is president taking over from his good friend Jack Becker. (Because no one wants the job, nor can they work with such an odd mindset?)

    ….The organization is currently volunteer run with the majority of work being performed by members of the board of directors. We are in the process of transitioning to a model where day-to-day operations are managed by staff and volunteers while the board provides organizational and advocacy leadership and governance. This transition, however, will likely consume a significant amount of board time over the next two years.

    Your tax dollars at work.

    Mind the trolls….says Guy Kawasaki http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20130722211438-2484700-top-12-signs-you-re-dealing-with-trolls

  • jenables

    This is the bccc, not hub, right? Hub is anything but volunteer run, with operating expenses of 500,000, 390,000 of which go to staff, if I’m not mistaken. Your tax dollars at work… cov pays hub.. to lobby it! Clap clap clap for Nelson 100, Roger, voony for being so succinct and seeing through the bs, for it is everywhere. On a side note, we have to remember just how much filthy lucre powers the vision pr machine, and that they do have people working full time to discount valid concerns and promote people who don’t support them as nimbys who want to make housing more expensive (derisive snort). You have to have big cajones to be calling people that live in neighborhoods like the DTES and GW NIMBY. NIMBY, as pointed out above, means you oppose a certain social mix or types of people or services in your neighborhood. Not wanting your neighborhood radically changed by towers built over what used to be REAL affordable housing is NOT nimby. These plans look much more like socio-economic cleansing and marketing to me.

  • Kenji

    @120

    Hi Nelson

    I don’t doubt that developers wish for in-migration, in the way that fishers wish for robust salmon stocks.

    However, there do seem to be actual brain types in the forecasting biz as well.

    The BC Population Projection Technical Assumptions paper, from 2013, is discoverable online.

    There is no space here to replicate the logic or the dataset, but in my view it is a plausibly complex formula incorporating such factors as pull to the city, birth rates, and longevity.

    Their forecast of some 6M folks in our province by 2036 may or may not be accurate, but it is not developer mumbo-jumbo.

  • jenables

    Well, perhaps they should take into account COST OF LIVING. That is the number one reason people I know are leaving this city (not sure about the province as a whole)

  • jenables

    Sorry kenji I meant to add one more point, that being there are volumes of unoccupied units, and certainly anyone looking to buy won’t have to look far. This scramble to build it all now feels like desperation to take advantage of a fragile economic situation before it worsens, NOT thoughtful planning with the people in mind.

  • jenables

    Lastly, waltyss has yet to provide me with an example where the neighborhoods were heard in a meaningful way by city council.

  • Richard

    @Ned

    Personal attacks and name calling are a sure sign you don’t have much of an argument. How about sticking to discussing the issues. Facts to back up your positions would be great.

  • Kenji

    @127

    I would think empty units for sale or rent would be a pull factor actually. But not unless the absent owners put them on the market or the rental board. I guess a lot of them are content to have empty apartments waiting for them to be their pied a terre in Vancouver.

    Despite reading an article in Mainlander supposedly debunking the foreign investment myth (it’s racist to say that Chinese people buy condos they don’t need!), CBC had an article this year citing a real estate developer that a quarter of the units in Coal Harbour are unoccupied, left empty by their offshore owners.

    Now, what is the point of development? It is to develop homes. Is a home a home if no one is living there? I would think yes…technically. It makes me mad too, but what’s the alternative, chasing them out? Having the occupancy police come by and check? On what authority?

  • Jay

    How is the public (we have a sampling here) suppose to make wise decisions about how our city develops when they aren’t aware of, or choose to ignore what should be uncontested facts? It’s like trying to debate religious fanatics. It’s pointless.

    Metro Vancouver has grown at a steady rate of 38 000 people per year over the past 30 years. Over the past 5 years, the metro has grown at a rate of 39 000 people per year. This steady increase in population is mostly fueled by immigration which averages 250 000 entrances into Canada each year. There is a push to increase that number.

    Metro Vancouver is roughly wedge shaped with mountains to the north, an international border to the south, and the Georgia Strait to the west. When you subtract the approximately 350 sq. miles of undevelopable mountain ranges from the metro area, you are left with 750 sq. miles of developable land (including Burns Bog and the ALR). That is a small area to work with when compared to other cities.

    These are the facts.

    When these opposition groups rally against new development and major infrastructure, are they recognizing these facts? Are they seeing what’s best for the city, as a whole, in a fair and rational way, or are they focusing on what’s happening in their back yard? Are they seeing towers being built in a limited fashion,primarily on industrial land and surface parking lots, or are they seeing them built everywhere and being built on top of what used to be affordable housing?

    Unfortunately the facts go out the window, and consequently you are labeled a nimby.

  • Roger Kemble

    . . . . or choose to ignore what should be uncontested facts?

    I wish Jay @ #132 I could be so confident.

    In my post #18 I quoted stats from Wikipedia! I cross checked with Vancity.

    According to Wiki Vancouver pop rose, 2006-11, at a rate of 5,000 annually.

    By the same stats Metro pop rose by 9.3% between 2006-11: about 8,000 +/- over five years (I am assuming the two numbers are independent of one another).

    I must say I find this to be an extraordinary discrepancy from local official data as perpetrated by the MSM!

    By this token, at first glance, there is no scarcity of land especially if we take into account rampant speculation and wasteful, bad city and municipal planning over the last half century.

    Perhaps Jay you would enlighten us by disputing these numbers with your uncontested facts!

  • Teririch

    @Richard :

    You and your fellow cycling fanatics seem to be placing your need for an ocean view above the safety of the masses. Laughable considering your every cry is ‘safety’.

  • Chris Keam

    We don’t want to share the path with cyclists.

    We don’t want to share the road with cyclists.

    We don’t want the cyclists to have their own path.

    Why all the extraneous verbiage? Just say what you mean:

    We don’t want cyclists.

    After all it’s not ‘rocket science’ to parse the bizarre arguments against better biking facilities. Save yourself some keystrokes.

  • jenables

    Walryss, those aren’t solid examples – I don’t believe the decision has been made for Dunbar and postponing a plan does not mean they are not intending to put towers there. I’ll believe it when I see it.

  • Voony

    @rph114,

    distance from the shore is a valid concern:
    -To be sure having the path on the Arbutus ROW vs middle of the park, is just a matter of moving it 5 to 10 meter away
    -At 2nd beach, cyclist are asked to do a more nasty detour: that works relatively well
    -On the picnic area, avoiding it makes a short cut for the cyclists. (most cyclist WB already use the road for thsi reason) it is only a 100meter stretch,
    so it has some pros from a cyclist viewpoint

    As long as cyclists feel that the path follow the shore: it will works (you can still see the sea from Maple street North or McNicoll)…for cyclist EB, today it is not that obvious (the Mc Nicoll direction is counter intuitive, but that can be worked out: having the path cutting corner at McNicoll#Maple in this part of the park make good sense)

    The most problenatic part is the junction Arbutus#Cornwall…going around the tennis court and parking lot is not a satsifying solution in term of cylist desire line (too much vunpleasant visual barrier)…but going between the tennis court and the boat house neither:
    the Whole purpose of the exercise is to suppress congestion on the existing path which occur at the foot of the boat house (lot of path crossing there)…keeping the cylcist, albeit on a separate path, bt in the same location is kind of defeating the purpose of the exercise.
    No good solution exists for this part of the park…

  • Voony

    @richard 118,

    Sometimes I indulge myself a picnic at Kits:
    after having bought my “saucisson” at Oyama , at Granville Island, I ride toward kits…I have to use streets (Creekside drive), where huge building hide me the view from the sea…but there is no choice,
    Then I risk my life under Burrad bridge (which in itself is the only rational to wear a helmet), then deal with boater forgetting that their truck haul a trailer, before arriving at Vanier park where things ease a bit.

    If cyclists safety was a faithful consideration for bike lane, I think the above could be addressed first, but it could have less political visibility…so what for?

    Ogden is nice to ride: Is Hadden making a nice picnic spot?

    I think that was the topic of my comment #117:
    (social distance, view, environment…),

    pickniker go to Kits because it is a prime spot for picnic, and Hadden doesn’t make the cut.

    You still can draw on a map, like too many planner does, “here it will be the picnic area”, “there a people square”, but does the people will come is another story.

    I have written on it for the city squares:
    http://voony.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/geography-of-paris-squares-or-plazas/

    and same logic apply for the parks…

    bottom line
    Kits picnic area is a prime picnc spot and there is basically no spot as good as this one accessible by transit, in Vancouver…

    Considering that cyclist have already 13+ miles of waterfront bikepath, one should weight the benefits of a brief moment of extra scenery for cyclists against the costs of eliminating prime space for picnickers, and constructing a longer and convoluted route.

  • Threadkiller

    I have watched the ongoing arguments (not only in this forum) regarding the Kits Park bike lane with a sense of depression and dismay. One of our favourite walks, one we do several times a month, takes us, in part, around the perimeter of Vanier Park, through Hadden Park and on along Kits beach. On a sunny Sunday back in September, we were passing the sloping grassy tree-fringed meadow at the north end of the beach– the controversial “picnic ground”– when, suddenly overcome by nostalgia, I stopped and said to my wife: “This is one of my favourite places in the city. It’s all but unchanged from when I first saw it nearly fifty years ago, and that’s become an incredibly rare thing in Vancouver”. Should have kept my mouth shut, I guess. I only found out about the bike path proposal 10 days ago after returning from a 3-week holiday– doesn’t say much for the city’s efforts to inform the public about it. Anyway, for me the mere sight of that grassy slope elevates my spirit and takes me back to my long-vanished youth (I was there the day the Grateful Dead showed up to play a free gig at Kits Beach only to be prevented from doing so by the cops… July, 1967). I don’t picnic and I don’t even walk on that grass. I just love to look at it, and I’ve been doing so for nearly half a century. Call me a passive user.

    One of the things I find appalling about the discussion around this whole issue is how willing otherwise intelligent people are to cede greenspace to asphalt, as long as they feel the cause is morally just. Pete McMartin, Spartikus (in another forum), Chris Keam (no surprise there)– all seem to have no problem with replacing grass with blacktop. As McMartin said, “a bike lane running through a park is not an issue”. Really? Running a twelve-foot-wide asphalt path through one of the prettiest little greenscapes in the city is not an issue? You’re bloody right it’s an issue. You have no problem with paving parkland? Here’s a question for you, CK– if someone was to propose doubling the width of the perimeter road around Stanley Park from two to three or even four lanes, would you have an “issue” with that? I suspect you would. Perhaps even the pave-the-damn-park-already likes of Spartikus and McMartin might. I very much would myself. So obviously it’s not the location alone of the path that determines its relative desirability and appropriateness, it’s its purpose. We’re back once again to two wheels good, four wheels bad.

    It will come as a surprise to CK, and it may be contradictory to previous statements I’ve made herein, but I can see the wisdom and necessity of building bicycle lanes in this city. The Hornby lane, the Dunsmuir lane; even the Point Grey Road lane– they provide cycling commuters with a safe alternative to mixing it up with car traffic, on which the city’ poorly-designed street system is choking. But the Kits Park lane’s sole purpose is recreational. That, to me, renders it non-essential, at least in that location. I echo the views of those who urge that it be routed along Arbutus. I couldn’t care less about showing off the view to cycling tourists. You want to admire the view? Get off your bike and walk. Go slow, stop often, sit on a bench or a rock, and you’ll see a lot more.

    I find the destruction of greenspace solely for the recreational pleasure of a vocal minority very hard to accept, especially when that minority is being showered with largesse (some of it, as I say, overdue) by a loving city administration. False Creek South, incidentally, is about to come to grips with the same issue. The city is currently embarked on a study of possible options to resolve the growing conflict between bikes and pedestrians along the FCS seawalk/seawall (part of the same overall seaside bike route that includes the Hadden/Kits Park section). Said conflict has been happening for years, but since the completion of the SE False Creek bike route and the resultant increase in bike traffic it’s getting much worse. The problem is particularly acute in the narrow stretch along Island Park Walk near Sutcliffe Park. Predictably, it has already been proposed– thus far informally– to substantially widen the walk/bikeway to Stanley Park dimensions for the length of the route. The problem is that that would require the obliteration of a couple of hundred meters of spectacular garden landscaping that has been evolving since FCS was first developed in the 70s, notably near Sutcliffe Park and Granville Island but also in Charleson Park, farther to the east. Neighbourhood hostility to this idea is reportedly running high, at least so far. How to resolve this conflict of use, of purpose? Is it in fact resolvable? Should those in the FCS neighbourhood learn to accept potentially lethal incidents like that involving a little girl who suffered a broken leg a couple of years ago after being hit near Alder Bay Walk by a speeding cyclist as collateral damage, if the alternative means destruction of the gardens? There will be public hearings on the matter, possibly early in the New Year. They should be… interesting. See http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/presentation-south-false-creek-seawall-study-2013-aug.pdf for more info.

    In the Calfiornia desert, solar energy developments are sprouting everywhere. Solar energy, as we all know, is a Good Thing, or so we’re told. But these massive projects, covering tens of thousands of acres with solar panels and towers, are destroying pristine desert landscapes– unspoiled places I once knew and loved– and wildlife habitat, including that of some endangered species. All to power the bright lights of Vegas and LA. Why is it always this way? Why is it that in order to gain something good we have to sacrifice something else that is good? Why are these choices so stark? Why are we forced to make them so damned often? Why is the price of Utopia so high?

  • Chris Keam

    @Threadkiller – well said. Great questions. I think you might have accidentally lumped me in with intelligent people but the rest of it is all good. 🙂

    For me, when I stand at an intersection yesterday in downtown Coquitlam and see a Smithrite garbage truck driver texting while driving through an intersection, turn 90 degrees to see a fellow in a BMW doing the same, see at least one person and usually more when I head downtown on the Dunsmuir lane failing to use handsfree or also texting while driving I realize the landscape has changed. The good old days when I could ride my bike down the Island Hwy to deliver papers are long gone. We have seen the enemy and they are behind the wheel and not paying attention. Sometimes they are like the fellow in a fine suit and Mercedes SUV on Pacific Boulevard on Wed. Holding his phone to his well-scrubbed face and oblivious to other road users, but clearly able to afford the tech solutions that make such shitty choices marginally safer. That’s why (for me) shared routes with cars are a barely-there solution when we are talking about areas of town where you can reasonably expect novice, young, and out-of-town riders to be on bicycles.

    As for speeding cyclists on the Seawall, you’d find no one more eager to see better enforcement of existing sanctions against such behaviour than myself. I wish the appropriate authorities would do something substantive on that front. If you ever need an ally….

  • boohoo

    “Considering that cyclist have already 13+ miles of waterfront bikepath”

    No, everyone does.

  • boohoo

    I find the bemoaning for the loss of ‘green space’ a bit rich. If that’s your fight, surely your energy is better spent elsewhere. Cast your eye, if you dare, beyond Vancouver where hectares of forests are cut down for housing, where creeks are culverted for new roads, millions spent on new sewer and water pipes out to the middle of nowhere and tell me a bike lane in a park is the problem.

    Now I know that’s ‘over there’ and not your problem, but think about it.

  • Kenji

    Surely the rationale for paving through the park would not be a delight in asphalt ipso facto, but for safety: to make it more obvious where the bikes go through, and by corollary, where they should not go through.

    That is separate from the notion that the paved path is well-selected – I don’t go down there myself (my bike goes from Mt Pleasant to downtown and back, every workday) and have no idea. From what I understand, it could be on or near the roadway. Maybe that’s better and maybe it isn’t.

  • Threadkiller

    Boohoo:
    Not to go all John Donne on you, but I’m acutely aware– and have been since the 1960s– were you born by then–? –that this province, this country, this hemisphere, and this planet are full of ongoing environmental disasters large and small, pretty much all of them human-caused. For you to assume I’m some kind of know-nothing dunderhead who never extends his gaze past Boundary Road is almost comically arrogant of you. Did you miss my mention of what’s being done to the California desert? You sound like the archetypal 1950s mother who would exhort her balky children to eat something they didn’t like by saying “Think of the starving children in India!” Think scale, Mom. Just because we hate turnips doesn’t mean we endorse famine. And just because I don’t like to see greenspace near my home covered in asphalt doesn’t mean I don’t care about clearcutting.

    My topic of discussion above was the bike path proposed for Hadden/Kits Beach Parks. I’d love to go on at length about what’s happening in the southern Sudan, Fukushima or the oil sands, but that would be a bit outside the parameters of the discussion.To say that environmentally questionable things that happen in our own backyard(s) don’t matter, because worse is happening elsewhere, is preposterous and completely undermines the whole concept of neighbourhood and community activism. It’s a recipe for apathy. Every heard of “Think globally, act locally”?

    I believe that we shouldn’t shit in our own nest. And if we’re going to address the world’s Big Threats, it helps if we start by cleaning up the mess at home. We all do what we can. That’s how social movements are built. Which brings us back to Donne (adapted a bit)) and that bell of his. It’s getting louder all the time…

  • Voony

    @Threadkiller138

    I agree with Chris Keam: well said and all good…and I am glad Chris agrees with that.

  • boohoo

    “To say that environmentally questionable things that happen in our own backyard(s) don’t matter, because worse is happening elsewhere”

    Which I did not say. I meant keep it in perspective. The rantings about ‘destroying greenspace’ are a bit over the top.

    I guess my ‘locally’ includes Metro Vancouver. I’m continually amused at how inward looking Vancouverites are and this weird ignorance or willful blindness to the consequences of decisions made or not made in the city proper on the region as a whole.

  • Threadkiller

    boohoo:
    Believe it or not, I’m in full agreement with you on the terminally parochial attitudes of Vancouverites (including Metro Vancouverites– I grew up in the burbs, myself), and have annoyed my few Vancouver-booster friends (I try to avoid such people) many times with similar observations. I’ve seen enough of the planet to realize that there are other, more (for lack of a better word) mature cities out there. What I objected to-strenuously– was your kneejerk assumption that I must feel otherwise, merely because I care about what happens in a little corner of the city I happen to have frequented for a long time. Incidentally, last time I heard, grassy expanses in parks still count as greenspace, albeit on a small scale, and unless I’m very much mistaken, asphalt and grass simply don’t mix well, physically or visually.