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More thoughtful analysis on Rize project from veteran thinkers about Vancouver

March 1st, 2012 · 47 Comments

Picking out a couple of commentaries from the posts in another thread on the Rize, which is generating the most interesting conversation I’ve seen about development and planning in this city than I’ve seen in a long time.

The first from Cameron Gray, the former director of the city’s housing centre. The second from historian and city-history documentarian Michael Kluckner.

Cameron Gray

A central problem with the current community planning process is that it doesn’t go beyond good intentions and get to the nuts and bolts of future development. The Mt. Pleasant Community Plan reads like motherhood and apple pie. Unless the City and community develop a plan that actually spells out maximum densities, building heights, set backs, etc. and defines the massing and land use for the whole community, we will continue to see these battles fought site by site. The Mt. Pleasant Plan should have provided enough clarity e.g. the max height and density for the 3 sites identified for higher densities and taller buildings to avoid this kind of confrontation. To just identify the 3 sites as potential high rise sites is not good enough. What does that mean? Higher than 10 storeys or over 20? The City, and the community, effectively left the hard work to be done site by site; short term pain was avoided for long term agony. Council should send the planners and community back to the table to come up with a plan that provides everyone with clear direction for development that may take place anywhere in the neighbourhood. Ideally the City would prezone Mt. Pleasant; that would provide the maximum certainty for all involved, but that may be too much to hope for.

 

Michael Kluckner:

My comments to mayor & council (trying not to add to the length of the public hearing):

First, Watson Street is treated insensitively. Truck loading? Watson Street is a very unusual half-block street in gridiron Vancouver and should be cherished and celebrated. This DP treats it very poorly.

Second, a 19 storey tower would be overwhelming to the fine texture and scale of the existing community. There has been a battle over whose perspective drawings are telling the truth. I suggest that anybody wondering what 19 storeys would look like should go look at Kerrisdale, where there is a mix of 10-storey high-rises together with lower-rise buildings and houses. If you think those heights work, imagine them doubled.

Third, there are good designs recently added to Mount Pleasant which are effectively 3.0 FSR. The rental/mixed use building at 1 Kingsway, where my daughter recently lived, is an excellent example. Its apartments relate to the street rather than being aloof from it in a vertical gated community atop a podium.

Fourth, city residents including me are getting absolutely tired of the tower-on-podium model and see no reason why this design should escape from downtown and be rewarded here with extra density. How do these things get through the Urban Design Panel? If the panel is so stuck in its ways, perhaps it needs some new members? I’m sorry, but this building looks like Metrotown. As Witold Rybczynski asked his audience at a lecture in Vancouver last October, “Why did you want to make your city look like Singapore?”

Fifth, the city should look to an earlier building model to reward with extra density. I believe that Anchor Point, built at Burrard and Pacific by Daon in the late 1970s, shows the way. Its 6-8 storey brick buildings are set on the street line, similar to the historic Vancouver model in Mount Pleasant and the West End; it has 465 units with an urban park within the “U” formed by the buildings. This type of project, I suggest, would see wider support in the community, would allow the developer a decent return, would make good use of a significant site at a major transit crossroads, and would distinguish the architecture of a historic neighbourhood from that of the much-overdone Downtown South/Yaletown neighbourhoods.

I urge you to send the Rize development back to the drawing board.

Categories: Uncategorized

  • mary

    Both have added much to this blog; especially useful is Michael Kluckner. How DID this get past the Urban Design Panel?? Dare I hope that Council might actually listen to reason?

  • Glissando Remmy

    Thought of The Day

    “I urge you to send the Rize development back to the drawing board.” – Michael Kluckner

    Vancouver Remembered… or turning back the “Kluck”.

    First thing first, Annabel Vaughn’s comment on the previous thread was excellent.
    Right on my alley!

    Second, Cameron Gray and Michael Kluckner, two local heavies, who’s advice I’ve always respected.

    “The Mt. Pleasant Community Plan reads like motherhood and apple pie. ”
    Mmmmmm…

    “How do these things get through the Urban Design Panel?”
    Exactly!

    Don’t care much about Witold Rybczynski but his question have daunted me for a loooong time, “Why did you want to make your city look like Singapore?”
    Huh?
    I wanted to tell him that we are more on the Hong Kong side of things, more like Vankong Revival.

    … and one more thing to add.
    Perhaps would be a good idea for the Council members & Mayor to read through this:

    http://www.michaelkluckner.com/books.html#vanrem

    I would have lend my copy. But it’s signed… “To my friend…” 🙂

    We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Bravo gentleman for your comments above…..now the question is how do we get people like you onto City Hall Planning!

    Thank you Francis for your continued work so far in posting excellent commentary and open dialogue!

    I would throw out a suggestion to the citizens of Vancouver to take this opportunity to come out and speak…..you can still sign up and have your say….

    Dare I say with all of the amazing speakers who have come forth to date that I believe the City is finally really listening!

  • Bill Lee

    And how is this going to affect the upcoming tower at Fraser and Broadway?
    As that involves some Indian/First Nations people it may be even more sensitive.

    The King Edward at Clark and Kingsway is out of scale for the area, even if designated a Vietnam Village by Councillor Jang.

    As Mr. Geller pointed out, height makes money, but doesn’t the city need a more general rise, in making any block of housing allowable up to 5 or 6 stories, (not wood-frame to that height). See Bremen’s mix, for example, or the streets of Paris that has been debated.

    Meanwhile the utility street, Kingsway, paralleling the interurban for part of the way beccomes the “leaky condo” into the Mysterious East.

  • Silly Season

    OK, so I’m not a “veteran” thinker on matters of urbanism, but it seems that my views are pretty sympatico with those of Mssrs. Gray and Kluckner.

    Does this mean I get to move out of my amateur status and up to Triple A (at least)?? 😉

    Or perhaps we can award everyone here a “common sense” certification?

    Remember our definition of insanity: doing things the same way, over and over, and expecting a better outcome.

  • Silly Season

    FWIW, my excited, fervent comment on this issue is #13 on “The dilemma of the tower outside the downtown: RIZE at Kingsway/Broadway” thread a few stories back.

    If i “get’ it, perhaps those folks at CH can get it too.
    Let’s try this, people.

  • Andrea C.

    Just adding my thanks for the above-the-line comments. I agree with Michael Kluckner that “truth in perspective drawings” is a serious issue. When the existing adjacent three-story building comes up about one-third in height to the proposed 19-storey 150-ft tower (hello 611 Main), you know developer-sponsored misrepresentation is reaching new heights, so to speak.

  • Westender1

    Thank you Cameron Gray and Michael Kluckner for your thoughtful comments. And thank you Frances for providing this forum for the exchange. I wonder though if we would be having this discussion if a community group hadn’t worked hard to raise awareness of this development proposal? Something does need to change in the way the City handles development – we shouldn’t need to go through “let’s make a deal” on each of these projects. Nor should land purchasers or residents be confronted with variable interpretations of community plans or vague language like “optimum” rather than “maximum” building heights.

  • Richard

    These people really need to get out of the stale urban design textbooks and go for a walk on the streets of Vancouver.

    The new massive 8-10 story buildings that are covering entire blocks are pretty brutal. Just wander along Broadway around Arbutus and Maple. The Olympic Village is another example.

    Robson, the section west of Beatty with all the new buildings, works quite well. The towers with the 2-3 story podiums let sunlight through to the sidewalk on the north side of the street even in late February. I doubt that this is happening along Broadway around Maple.

  • Frances Bula

    @Richard. Hmm, I think this is a debatable point. I happen to like those square blocks. My mother lived in the Arbutus area just three blocks west of Maple and I liked the whole district. Much prefer Portland’s Pearl District to Yaletown. Like the Olympic Village far more than some of the Concord stuff. Someone is going to get an interesting thesis out of which buildings shapes appeal to which people and why.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    @ Richard, Frances

    The question is really about the point of view of the observer—not politics, but location and speed.

    Kevin Lynch served the Kool-Aid in his 1960’s book “The View From the Road”, and folks been drinking it ever since. I read it long after its publication date and was left with the impression that a better title might have been, “The View from Behind the Steering Wheel of My Car Driving Faster than 30 m.p.h.”

    That’s one view, and although it is illegitimate, it happens to be the view of most of the people making the big decisions. You just can’t afford to walk in a place if you are pulling a six-figure salary.

    People walking experience place at 10x, or one order of difference, less than the drivers. And what a difference it makes.

    Then there are the people resident in the place, who must be walkers if they are really tell the story of place. They will be able to see the place from the perspective of the seasons, and the different times of day for being resident.

    Except for the Bank of America mauve tower, I think that the old district in Portland kicks the urban **s off all the other newer, fancier places there.

    The best places in Portland are the south Park Blocks (#3 best urbanism in North America,the Art Museum is there ); and 23rd Avenue, just west of downtown.

    Some of the newer buildings on the South Park Blocks are too bulky; and one or two of the 1920’s apartment houses on 23rd are veritable lessons in good urbanism.

  • Frank Ducote

    Richard and Frances – you’re both right and that’s why this kind of debate occurs. People differ. Michael K. suggests that a 6-8 story perimeter block concept like Anchor Point would be a superior approach in this location. Try and imagine what that height street wall would do to the low scale of Watson Street. It’d be brutal.

    He further oversimplifies what the urban form of Kerrisdale is. The built form there, not unlike older West End high rises, are based on the freestanding “towers in the park” concept advocated by Corbu. Simply trying to imagine doubling their 10-story (actually 12) height would give no one a realistic impression of how the current proposal would read in the landscape.

    While I am taking no sides in this particular battle, I do think people who are purportedly deep thinkers about urban form should take it upon themselves to enlighten, not mislead.

    Finally, we should not underestimate how we need sunlight to hit the public realm and sidewalk (when we have it!). Try and imagine a full 10 storey buildout – Lee Building scale- everywhere on arterials in Mt. Pleasant’s heart. Do you think that would be preferable to a wider range of forms, some lower and yes some higher, that try and respond to local constraints and opportunities, overshadowing and even place making, which seems to have been lost in all this argument?

    Better watch what you wish for.

  • Roger Kemble

    Yes, Frank @ #12 is my ideal too: but . . .

    If Cameron Gray and Michael Kluckner can speak to the Rize public hearing in Mount Pleasant then so may I. Neither is resident and the latter has been out of the country for some years, until recently.

    First off how many affected residents bothered to show? Maybe four or five hundred at most out of a pop of over 16-17,000+/- eligible voters. Not exactly overwhelming!

    Mount Peasant has become the epicenter community of Vancouver . . .
    http://www.theyorkshirelad.ca/1yorkshirelad/vancouver.re-boot/Vancouver.re-boot.html
    . . . epicenter as in volcano, while the city slept. It is not the sleepy community of artists’ live works of the 1980’s. Neither is Canada the peacekeeper of Lester Pearson’s days.

    As for building heights, check out Mount Pleasant Community Plan approved by City Council November 18, 2010.

    3.2 In treating Mount Pleasant as a ‘hilltown’ that uniquely straddles the west and east sides of the city . . . IMO, makes this location well suited for three towers.

    Unfortunately, there seems to be an element of protest that has driven what could be a reasonable design into an ungainly chunk of building clearly beneath the talents of the architects.

    I count phrases such as ”height”, “any additional height over six stories”, “including added density and height to encourage development”, “height beyond that permitted” etc 19 times in the plan and my eyesight is not 20/20.

    Check for yourselves but height was no arbitrary matter in the plan and perceptive members of CLG should have been alert.

    If Mount Pleasant residents are really concerned about their neighbourhood begin to address the influx of offshore speculative money that is distorting every aspect of Vancouver life: not the least the price of a home.

    For clarification click on my name above: this is reality and it affects every thing we do.

  • tf

    Thanks for the fabulous postings and wonderful comments.
    I know I keep bringing my own neighbourhood into the mix but if we don’t comment on what’s happening in Chinatown, we’re going to face the same thing there that we’re seeing with RIZE.

    I’m using a quote from Mr. Kluckner’s writing above –
    “Second, a 19 storey tower would be overwhelming to the fine texture and scale of the existing community.”
    Main and Kingsway is fairly wide and it has elevation so an open view to the sky is a possibility – now imagine Main St and Keefer – the centre of Chinatown with lots 25 feet wide. Now imagine 17 stories rising up!!! It disturbs me greatly to imagine the thing.

    Please, Mr. Kluckner, Mr. Gray, Frances, all of you – if you can – please comment on the City’s website about this proposal – here’s the link –
    http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/rezoning/applications/601-627main/index.htm

    Thank you again!

  • Mira

    Excellent comment Roger at #13
    I read that Bank of Canada excerpt… frightening, yet how many of us pay attention to that?
    Slaves…

  • Mira

    Funny.
    When the same two comments from DC and MK were posted here:
    http://francesbula.com/uncategorized/rize-tower-chapter-2-public-opponents-make-arguments-from-sublime-to-ridiculous/#comments
    Not a peep…
    But after Frances “endorsement” LOL in a stand alone post, the applause are pouring in, hellooo, two comments that are no better or worse than any I’ve seen, so chill…
    Don’t put too much hope in this Vision council either. We’ll talk later…

  • Bill Lee

    @tf // Mar 2, 2012 at 10:32 am
    Tiny lots with needle towers? Common in Hong Kong.
    The ones on the Kowloon side look rather grotty on the outside but inside can be fabulous with inlay floors, rosewood and other glamourous cliches.
    They are on rock and have learned how to set piles (Bang, Bang, Bang! all day. Will that be the case in Chinatown) well from the 1950s on, as a base.

  • Bill Lee

    @various
    Watson Street?
    Already “ruined” by new vertical walls flush with the street from 10th south to 12th or hasn’t anyone looked.
    Google or Bing maps has street views of Watson, (a “named lane”) and it really goes quite far.
    http://preview.tinyurl.com/7tnny4b

  • Bill Lee

    @Richard // Mar 1, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    “Walk”? That is for animals.

    Civilized people drive their shiny cars to undercover parking lots, there to alight and glide into the shopping emporiums of Green and other shoppes of fine design and taste.
    So there are shadows, the right people don’t notice them while in their prestige cars.
    Who are these little people who walk in our neighbourhood? Shouldn’t they stay in their own benighted areas?
    😉

    Richard (Campbell), Kits bike snob, is doing a good service elsewhere today in pointing out another reason not to have parking at hospitals, in the plans for Surrey Hospital to take up a Hydro right-of-way for “parking” instead of a useful bike trail extension.

  • Joe Just Joe

    I disagree that Chinatown is the same thing, while there is a proposal for 17flrs it’s within 150ft, only 2/3rds the height of this proposal. Also the community plan approved there detailed what would be allowed unlike the case on the Rize site.

  • D. Samis

    I think Chinatown is a relevant example in terms of Mr. Gray’s recommendation:

    “Unless the City and community develop a plan that actually spells out maximum densities, building heights, set backs, etc. and defines the massing and land use for the whole community, we will continue to see these battles fought site by site.”

    Chinatown is relevant because it is one of the few neighbourhoods that has very specific and detailed building design specifications already in place. However, the 17 storey tower (and 4 others in the works) clearly contradict these guidelines on many points.

    The tower still managed to get approval from Council, with the full endorsement of the former Planning Director, aquiescence by the Heritage Commission and UD Panel, and based on a handful of behind-closed-doors amenity agreements struck with key property owners.

    Clearly, a bureaucratic or Council-endorsed agenda can easily trump the wishes of the community, the Community Plan, or even the very specific design specifications put in place to stop this type of travesty from occurring.

    As MB said in a previous post: “It’s obvious that the existing community consultation policy is on trial along with this project…”

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    Let me add another opinion about the towers leaking out into the neighbourhoods from Patrick Condon:

    http://wp.me/p1mj4z-Bc

    “Council should send the planners and community back to the table to come up with a plan that provides everyone with clear direction for development that may take place anywhere in the neighbourhood. Ideally the City would prezone Mt. Pleasant; that would provide the maximum certainty for all involved, but that may be too much to hope for.”

    Cameron Gray

    It won’t do to just “send them back to the table” because in the current paradigm the neighbourhoods just have one option… staff’s view of the future.

    “Fourth, city residents including me are getting absolutely tired of the tower-on-podium model and see no reason why this design should escape from downtown and be rewarded here with extra density. How do these things get through the Urban Design Panel? If the panel is so stuck in its ways, perhaps it needs some new members? I’m sorry, but this building looks like Metrotown.”

    Michael Kluckner

    I have friends that have served on the Urban Design Panel. These are people I like, and they are the kind of architect that has never seen a tower they don’t like. Time to retool the planning paradigm, we agree.

    Do you think that would be preferable to a wider range of forms, some lower and yes some higher, that try and respond to local constraints and opportunities, overshadowing and even place making, which seems to have been lost in all this argument?”

    Frank Ducote

    No and Yes.

    No, “a wider range of forms, some lower and yes some higher, that try and respond to local constraints and opportunities…” This is just the failed paradigm all over again.

    What we have never got right in the history of Vancouver urbanism after 1908 is the urbanism of an “even buildout”. When every building is the same height in a district—think of any place you care to think about in the ‘old’ and beautiful world—the ‘speacial favour’ is ruled out, and who gets the view, and who owns the highest ground is set by the topography of the land.

    Yes, “… overshadowing and even place making…” is part of good urbanism. Yet, again—No, ” …which seems to have been lost in all this argument?”

    Some of us always keep it in the cross-hairs.

    tf… thanks for the link, I’ll be adding my voice to the save our Chinatown outcry.

  • Everyman

    I’m not sure why we should be afraid of the term build-out applying to Vancouver. The last thing we would want is for the city to become another Tokyo.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    CORRECTION: Yes, “…[avoiding] overshadowing and even place making…”

  • Roger Kemble

    Lewis @ #22
    Lewis you are absolutely right it is time to re-tool the planning paradigm. But, as I have mentioned before, that will not happen until we re-tool our financial system to make it more equitable and, especially free ourselves of the overhanging burden of money as debt: it is the main impediment to good urban design and land use.

    I have mentioned this before: you seem oblivious. Understand, every square metre of land must have a payout under the current system: that is why contemporary pubic urban space is almost nonexistent!

    Urban design specialists” do not design cities. Money does: despite Kings and Emperors, it has throughout history.

    Now, you say, “Let me add another opinion about the towers leaking out into the neighbourhoods from Patrick Condon . . .

    As for your tower theory: you seem to be pathologically opposed to towers out side the downtown core. Why?

    For economic reasons, they will not go away and as a conscientious urban design specialist you must be prepared.

    An urban design specialist deals with all contingencies, limited only by reality!

    You harbor the delusion that, by placing a tower on its side you are able to achieve the same density on the same footprint area. That is simply not true: try constructing your own proforma.

    I do not share your opinion of SALA’s Condon. He is wedded to a suspect theory of AGW leading, IMO, his students down the garden path.

    Indeed it was not long ago you, too, were an AGW skeptic. What happened?

    Condon encouraged his students to waste their valuable academic time whittling away pieces of wood building models of what is easy to see from the Broadway bus when they should be studying the pros and cons of their designs.

    He does not recognize the in-situ layout of Vancouver’s neighbourhoods. Nor does he see the possibilities of localized pedestrian opportunities as you do.

    He just strings tramlines and six storey walk-ups were four stories are now. Any attempt, surprisingly, to gently, improve neighbourly identity or focus just isn’t on his agenda.

    Let Condon go. In the ten or so years I have known you you have obsessed over Krier, Dwaney, New Urbanism (all slick ways to sell real estate), towers, yesterday’s villages and now, apparently Condon.

    Click here . . .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11TAWkx8o6w&feature=related
    . . . for The Global Warming Hoax Explained for Dummies.

    Please, then, go to the Kokorin/Corbyn AGW conversation by clicking on my name above. Their opinions are far more relevant than our local parochial prejudices.

    Why bother with Condon’s limited view? Why wed yourself to a suspect AGW theory, very likely to become embarrassing history later on?

    Beats me.

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Roger Kemble @ 25

    I agree money talks and to me this basically is saying to hell with what the community wants but throughout this period of debate over this Rize Development I feel the most fundamental issue is being overlooked…….highrises don’t build communities!

    Look at Yaletown for example, only 17% of the population came out to vote as oppossed to other areas….per capita it consistantly has the lowest voting rate.

    Does the not reflect the lack of interest of renters and owners in this area to express their fundamental right to vote? does this not reflect that they must not really care if they are not making the effort to come out and vote?

    People who live in condo’s generally leave their condo and go down to the car park where they drive off to work. I know, I live in a condo complex but make a concious effort to engage in conversation with my neighbours and we forge friendships and socialize outside of our condo and we know we are the exception.

    Community is the core of a balanced society and if you continually shove community further and further out of the city what do you have in the inner city, nothing but an area filled with lots of people and no soul.

    Besides Roger doesn’t those of us who wish to live in pleasant, hospitable areas in the inner city have a right to prove the critics wrong?

    From what I have seen, heard and learned about Urban Planning over the past year while attempting to help my community of Mt Pleasant progress forward not have Developers shove their ‘wants’ down our throat, I beg to differ with your opinion that highrise’s are inevitable.

  • Roger Kemble

    Michelle S of Mt Pleasant @ # 26

    Thanqu for your very sensitive response.

    Let it be said that the Community Liason Group CLG made up of Mount Pleasant residents, steered thru your community plan with 19 +/- provisions for increased heights (see post 13).

    I understand there fore there is the possibility of three such Rize towers: hardly excluding choices for all 27,000 residents of your community.

    I have lived on the 10th floor of a 27 floor tower for the last 11 years: we have community, gossip at the mail boxes, parties and a Facebook page.

    I do not feel any sense of depravation or height vertigo but then I am single and my family are all grown up.

    I hope you find a happy little home in your community. I know the off-shore speculators are running rampant in Vancouver making it difficult for everyone.

    Best wishes . . . Roger

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Dearest Roger @ 27

    I do suffer from vertigo so 6 stories is where I max out though I take no issue with Development in our neighbourhood maxing out at 10 stories for those who are not so ‘height’ challenged.

    For me and the thousands of people I have spoken to and liased with about this Rize Development, that seems to be the ‘happy’ point that they are willing to concede regarding the height issue.

    Thank you for the well wishes Roger but I do have a ‘happy little home’ in my community and I will continue to fight for it to remain so all the while helping it grow in a respectable and progressive manner without the ‘help’ of highrise towers…….off-shore speculators and greedy Developers be forewarned lol!

  • Frank Ducote

    Lewis – being trendy does not equate to new, IMO.
    Further to just one of Roger’s many good points to you above, placing a tower on its sde instantly loses about 30- 50% of its density, i.e, the two facades that become the top/ roof and the bottom of the horizontal form.

    As you are a good student of urban form, as I hope you agree that I am as well, you should know That there are any forms of urbanism ( not just new vs. old).

    I’d suggest that as a fairly built up city the future of Vancouver has more to do with a mix of forms in neighbourhood centres than it does with a forced sameness of form and height, no matter how passionately – and endlessly, I might add- you argue for it.

    This is certainly likely when larger and uniquely located sites become available. That’s when the real challenges arise and real creativity is called for. They also present opportunities for special neighbourhood amenities and services that aren’t available on a site by site basis.

    Councillors and planners who advise them do not have the luxury of an absolutely consistent academic and/or theoretical ideology that neatly fits each and every condition, no matter the specifics or conditions involved. That’s why there are rezonings and public hearings. Council is the ultimate decider, weighing all the factors, not just a select few.

    As I’ve written in an earlier post, I take no sides in the Rize rezoning application, but only wish to provide some balance to this wonderful, wacky and fully engaging conversation now in progress. Thanks FB!

  • Richard

    @Frances Bula

    It is the street level details that are most important and the style of the build, not the height that make streets interesting. Unfortunately, we have bland buildings of all sizes in Vancouver. People tend to focus on the tall ones because they are more noticeable but there are plenty of 1-4 story buildings around the city that add nothing to the street scape.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    @ Frank 29 et al

    How many residential building typologies are there in Vancouver?

    1. The Cottage Lot
    2. The Storefront Building (sometimes)
    3. The walk-up apartment
    4. Hi-Rise apartment
    5. The tower (commercial or residential)

    The missing type:

    6. The fee-simple, high-density, human-scale urban house.

    These are just objective facts. Obvious to those of us who study urban form.

    Some people call it nostalgia, others complain about it being too trendy. But the faces speak for themselves.

    An explanation is missing: if planning in Vancouver is doing so well—and this observation holds across the region, and probably beyond—then why are the neighbours mad as hell and not taking it any more?

    I wouldn’t belabour the point that mix is ‘good’ urbanism. The best places in North America and abroad are typically built of predominantly one building type: Beacon Hill, Greenwich Village, North Beach San Francisco, Quebec City, Montreal (Canada’s urban capital in the 18th century), Cabbage Town, the historic squares of Paris, Haussmann’s Paris, the old sector of Rome, the Spanish, French, Italian and Greek hill towns (which BTW do not have glass towers)… the list is endless.

    I am not saying that we are not all working on the same problem. I think we are all looking at the same facts and trying to come up with a solution. The problem is that if we don’t shift paradigm, then we wind up looking in the wrong places. We want to find density in a single building project, not the neighbourhood at large; we want to find affordability in the core, rather than region wide; and we look to building form to correct for the livability of the street, rather than lowering traffic counts. I’m just reporting the facts.

    The resulting quality of the public realm (overlook, shadowing and congestion) is something to worry about.

    These concerns call for the other play book. And the results are not about achieving soaring architecture, but rather about creating a delightful experience for anyone chancing to walk the neighbourhood on foot. It is a human-scaled urbanism, first and foremost, and it is alien to the architecture of modernism.

    It’s time to strike out in a new direction.

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Lewis N. Villegas @ 31

    I like how you think……too bad our City Planning Department muzzles like minded souls but let’s the likes of Yes men and women call the shots….or should I say do as they are told…….

  • Frank Ducote

    Lewis – being trendy does not equate to new, IMO.
    Further to just one of Roger’s many good points to you above, placing a tower on its sde instantly loses about 30- 50% of its density, i.e, the two facades that become the top/ roof and the bottom of the horizontal form.

    As you are a good student of urban form, as I hope you agree that I am as well, you should know That there are any forms of urbanism ( not just new vs. old).

    I’d suggest that as a fairly built up city the future of Vancouver has more to do with a mix of forms in neighbourhood centres than it does with a forced sameness of form and height, no matter how passionately – and endlessly, I might add- you argue for it.

    This is certainly a possibility when larger and uniquely located sites become available. That’s when the real challenges arise and real creativity is called for. They also present opportunities for special neighbourhood amenities and services that aren’t available on a site by site basis.

    Councillors and planners who advise them do not have the luxury of an absolutely consistent academic and/or theoretical ideology that neatly fits each and every condition, no matter the specifics or conditions involved. That’s why there are rezonings and public hearings. Council is the ultimate decider, weighing all the factors, not just a select few.

    As I’ve written in an earlier post, I take no sides in the Rize rezoning application, but only wish to provide some balance to this fully engaging conversation now in progress. Thanks FB!

  • Bill McCreery

    @ Cameron:

    “Unless the City and community develop a plan that actually spells out maximum densities, building heights, set backs, etc. and defines the massing and land use for the whole community, we will continue to see these battles fought site by site.”

    You are absolutely correct. I’ve been saying the same for some time, and not just about this spot rezoning. In addition, Frank’s suggestion that more mixed massing allows designers to better deal with the intricacies of their sites also has validity. However, one of the problems with the present proposal is there is too much density given the peculiarities of this site.

    If one looks carefully at the present proposal, the Watson Street facade is almost as high as Anchor Point’s, I believe, 5.0 FSR and 8 storeys (the RIZE equivalent height at the north end is 10 storeys and 7 at the southern end), plus there is the tower at the south end and more than 50% of the facade is dead wall or the opening into the loading docks. surprisingly the staff report does not mention the negative impact this massing, dead wall and shadowing will have on the recently completed Metro Housing [?] building opposite on Watson. In addition, the 5.5 density is creating massing and modelling for the complex with serious street scale issues on the other 3 facades, as well as a level 3 rooftop courtyard that virtually sees no sunlight (the Anchor Point courtyard has very good sun exposure).

    Somewhere over the past 10 years the politicians and/or planners have become hooked on trying to get these elevated densities onto sites that just don’t work for them (this site, for instance is considerably more challenging than Anchor Point’s). From 1973 to the 90’s Vancouver planners and politicos spent a lot of time and thought trying to get a density balance that works to create a human scaled urban environment for our society, climate, latitude, geography, etc. Recently priorities have been changed so that getting as many CAC’s wrung out of the developer as possible with the misguided notion that more density is greener than less density no matter how far you go up the scale combined with this unnecessary one off spot rezoning process produces these unacceptable neighbourhood solutions we’ve been seeing.

    I ran out of time and was not able to deliver my final comments to Council Thursday night, but, perhaps they have some relevance here:

    “I support smart development that fits into a neighbourhood in a positive, constructive way, but not this one, and not this way. When the City adopts a neighbourhood plan, they are effectively entering into a kind of a contract with that community. That contract must be honoured, or the essential “trust” between the neigbourhood and the City is broken. I refer you to your own Planning Commission’s final paragraph recommendation in their August 2011 report where they conclude the neighbourhood panning process must be fixed.

    “You’ll be hiring a new planning director soon, and I ask that you make sure that that person will be capable of stopping this destructive ad hoc spot rezoning and CAC process, and institute neigbourhood based planning where everyone knows the values and priorities of that particular community, and the resulting planning and development rules, and they are adhered to. Let’s put predictability and projects that fit back in place, and let’s get neighbours working constructively with neighbours and the development industry to make Vancouver a sustainable city of diverse communities. And, let’s put this proposal back for more work. It can be better.”

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    Further to just one of Roger’s many good points to you above, placing a tower on its sde instantly loses about 30- 50% of its density, i.e, the two facades that become the top/ roof and the bottom of the horizontal form.

    Reason I didn’t address the point is because it resembles the medieval philosophical debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Are we supposed to rely on an authority that tells us it is so, or are we to ask for the measurements?

    One of the things that the neighbours are overtly angry about is a loss of trust in our professional staff and our elected officials.

    On the former, pontifications that fail to address the facts on the street don’t play well in the charrette environment. On the latter, campaign contributions from developers to local politicians are beginning to raise eyebrows.

    … when larger and uniquely located sites become available. That’s when the real challenges arise and real creativity is called for. They also present opportunities for special neighbourhood amenities and services that aren’t available on a site by site basis.

    Modernism or old paradigm planning, folks can decide for themselves. With the new playbook we look at re-platting the site with an eye to correct some of the problems inherited from the automobile age.

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Bill McCreery @ 34

    Hey Bill, I loved how the City Councillors had no questions for you and Elisabeth after your speeches at the Public Hearing! political snobbery towards their adversaries?

    Instead they took out their frustration of their own short sightedness on a pregnant woman who made it clear that they were making her feel uncomfortable…..how politically correct of them 🙁

    Thank you for your informed food for thought….hope the Mayor and Councillors are steadily ruminating over the facts until we proceed on March 27th…….

  • Bill McCreery

    Michelle, you noticed those, and I’m sure other similar nuances too. It’s too bad.

    The elections over, at least for me. It would be nice if the adversarial stances could be put to bed to allow respectful listening and exchange of ideas (I’m guilty of being a bit aggressive as well, unfortunately in this context, I do care about our City). We will have to await for the next scene of this saga.

    Speaker after speaker at the RIZE have been clearly registering that there are some apparent solutions to the difficulties informed citizens are having in their attempts to communicate with the present City government. I’d like to think there may be a window in the next few months for some positive changes for some genuine improvements to that end. I sincerely hope so. Vancouver will be the loser, as will we all, if this does not happen.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    In addition, Frank’s suggestion that more mixed massing allows designers to better deal with the intricacies of their sites also has validity.

    @ Bill 34 et al

    OK, but let’s deal with the real issue. Urbanism is not won one site at a time.

    In great neighbourhoods, “the whole is greater than the sum of the parts”, and what we have to add to Cameron Gray’s formula is the authority that will “design” the neighbourhood.

    I am on the record saying that what we mean by “urban design” boils down to “tower shaping”.

    The ‘other’ urban design shapes the neighbourhood as a whole first, then zones the parts. Yes, the zoning is by building type, not use. High-desnity, human scale neighbourhoods thrive on mix at a scale that zoning policy is just not able to deliver.

    In this matrix, I get a lot of attention for arguing that we need to add one more residential building type, and that’s gets some folks crying wolf!

    However, the issues go much deeper than that. And, of course, it is a great oversimplification to reduce the new paradigm to just a new building type—glaring as that omission may seem to some.

    Frank is probably still having coffee this morning, but he can doodle this one on the icing of the cinnamon bun (while I’m screwing around with HTML).

    What do we propose to do about:

    Density on the arterials—is the Rise the only building type that fits?
    Livability on the Streets—Appleyard suggested in the 1980’s, and Elizabeth McDonald has replicated the study recently, that livability is a function of traffic volume.
    Affordability—are we locked into looking at this only inside municipal boundaries or are we willing to expand our thinking to include to regional horizons?

    In my opinion, and in some of my work, the answer to these and other pressing problems lies in shifting our approach to include a new approach to how we practice urban design—as something much more than shaping towers—to address in meaningful policy and form the problems that we all agree point to something not working right out there.

    This is generational change.

  • Michael Geller

    For those who care about the planning of cities, this story in Sunday’s New York Times should be of interest. It raises the question, at least in my mind, as to what extent planners can determine the appropriate size for a neighbourhood or a city.

    Over the years, I have often heard people say we don’t want to become another Manhattan….

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/realestate/how-many-people-can-manhattan-hold.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    On the “tower on its side” controversy, I have the following research agenda awaiting an opportunity to complete. It is a built form and density analysis of five Canadian Quartiers:

    1. Prince Rupert—designed by a Boston firm in the 1910’s with a human-scale, walkable plan, but built out as a west coast suburb. Lot’s of dissonance there; hopefully some lessons.

    2. Queen Streetcar Neighbourhood, Toronto—platted without rear lanes, the build out is mostly duplex lots with parking in the front yards. Block pattern is very walkable. Of course, the streetcar is a big reason to look at this neighbourhood, as is its proximity to Canada’s largest metropolis.

    3. North Shore False Creek—We need to know the numbers of units per acre of this built form. And get a read of the quality of the street life twenty years into its build out.

    4. Olympic Village—a careful tabulation of this new Canadian district should provide for insightful comparisons.

    5. Charlottetown, PEI—this one is two-pedestrian sheds large, mostly built out with a characteristic built form of the region. The plan is composed of four village squares by-sected by Great George Street, some 1,200 feet long (i.e. the radius of one of the ped sheds). If you avoid the tourists and talk to the locals, the stories of place are fascinating.

    I make only one statement about tower densities, based on densities reported in the “Vancouver Achievement”: namely that towers and urban houses deliver equivalent densities at the level of the walkable neighbourhood or quartier.

    The urban houseis restricted to a four storey maximum. The towers can always build higher and add more density. Yet, that just begs the question about the resulting quality of the public realm.

    However, I am keeping my powder dry, and I am not making any overt statements or claims before the research is complete. The site work is finished. I am waiting for the opportunity to crop up to complete the last phases of the research: mapping, analysis and reporting.

    The research methodology will allow straight, apples-to-apples comparisons across the five study sites, as well as 10 other Canadian Quartiers already completed:

    1. Hydrosone, Halifax
    2. Rue Cuillard, Quebec Citadel
    3. Cabbagetown, Toronto
    4. Market Square, Winnipeg
    5. Arbutus Village, Vancouver
    6. Westdale, Hamilton
    7. Place Roy, Montreal
    8. Dartmouth, N.S.
    9. ByWard Market, Ottawa
    10. Granville Island, Vancouver

  • ROBERT MCNUTT

    not being a speach writer i spoke #85 , i spoke from the heart, i live here, since 1994, i rent , i have restored my apt , i wish to die here , i spoke of height , the human ness of height, the lee building was 2.33 x the average building and on 2 biulding lots. more or less thats my speach . i was amazed how stupid stevenson is , oh my , towers in the west end , why not in mt pleasant , sweety , most of the west ends towers are rentals , 1 kingsway was the only built one in mt pleasant , sweety stevenson wake up . anthony n , you stupid old fool , i thought i liked you, not now, “we missed our chance to get a tower at 1 kingsway” he said to me , i got up and walked away , anthong , you do not live in mt pleasant f–k o– ! , daughter of a developer , come on , young guy who rize is underwriting to basically sway others to like it & vote yes , gerneraaly im not so sour , but on this topic i am , there was no mention of brewery creek, view cones , massive shadows , sun glare ( see 1 kingsway ) for that , i could ramble on…………..

  • RH Zhang

    “Why did you want to make your city look like Singapore?”
    Why not???

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    RH Zhang @ 42

    OMG did you not read the comments posted! Please do everyone a favour and post something intelligent or at the very least follow the thread! ‘why not’ seriously?

  • Michelle

    RH Zhang #42
    Why do I have the feeling that you are craving for home?
    ““Why did you want to make your city look like Singapore?”
    Why not???”
    Because that’s the reason why Singaporeans want to emigrate to Canada. To escape that type of living…
    Here’s an idea, why don’t you move there instead, and while there, be a good sport and spread our Canadian architecture and values…

  • voony

    Michelle,

    I guess you do the same suggestion to all people taking inspiration in European archictecture:

    If you don’t like HighRise, what epitomize the NA architecture, why don’t you move to Europe?

  • Michelle S of Mt Pleasant

    Voony @ 45

    You obviously missed Michelle’s point, the fact is NA can accommodate a European architectural look and feel because we have the know how and SPACE…….unlike Singapore which must resort to shoebox size homes and high-rises to accommodate the masses……thanks but no thanks, I personally do not find that type of lifestyle appealing.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    @voony 45

    Just a hunch… don’t mess with the ladies from MP!

    I too would debate that the “tower” epitomizes NA architecture. While it was probably first built in Chicago (out of load bearing masonry), Europeans get first billing for proposing towers (Mies van der Rohe and Le Corbusier, to name two).

    Paris is not without its Montparnasse, or La Defense. Frankfurt has a tower zone. Rome has some hideous neighbourhoods that built out in the last century. One does not have to stay in North America to see bad urbanism.

    And, one can see ‘good’ urbanism in North America as well. Montreal, Boston, NYC, San Francisco, Alexandria, Charlottetown, Halifax, Quebec City, New Orleans, Miami, etc.

    If you know where to look, then ‘good’ urbanism is there to be found in NA.

    Oh, and in most cases… it is served up with ‘good’ transit.