Here’s my more official recap of the week’s events in the Globe when it comes to the story of FD Element, the company hired to build the mayor’s website, also funding a political blog that attacks Vision critics.
I should note that the anonymous former contractor who went on Global did not specifically say that the money for the blog was coming from the mayor’s office, going through FD and to blogger Jonathan Ross. He says FD paid Jonathan to blog and paid to set up his blog. He says Mayor Gregor Robertson’s chief of staff Mike Magee was directing operations on the blog. The inference is that that’s where the money is coming from but it’s only an inference.
As my story notes, in Magee’s first interview since coming back from China yesterday, the chief of staff says he’s willing to open up the books so people can see anything they want about FD Element billing and work for the city.
84 responses so far ↓
1 spartikus // Sep 16, 2010 at 8:24 am
That will go a ways to address whether taxpayers dollars directly funded Civicscene, but given the vague way the contracts were written there will still be the whiff of “black op” about it.
2 Tom // Sep 16, 2010 at 8:38 am
Of course the city books are open for review on FD Element…..he knows they’ve obscured the payments and the work orders enough to ensure plausible deniability.
If Mike Magee really wants to clear his name, and that of the Mayor and those involved, he’ll agree to submit to a forensic audit of all forms of communication he utilizes, including of any and all servers of transfer to ensure he didn’t just spend the last week deleting all emails.
The lot of those involved in this whole saga have had the better part of two weeks now to try and cover their tracks and delete what they can that hasn’t already been leaked.
From those involved, we’ve heard numerous times there are more documents to come.
If thats the case, then mirror their hard drives now and lets compare it to the documents that come out later to verify Magee’s honesty, or lack thereof.
What they’ve offered up currently as proof they’re telling the truth, is barely enough to get the likes of Charlie Smith, Allen Garr and yours truly off their backs.
If the laziness or age of many reporters in town don’t get the better of them, there are still more than enough questions left to ask, which should lead to the Mayor having to replace his staff.
3 Mark Allerton // Sep 16, 2010 at 9:14 am
This looks like a classic “swiftboating”.
Yesterday the line from AGT’s little posse was “why haven’t they denied it.” Today the line is that “Why haven’t they submitted to a forensic audit”. If strategy seems to be to escalate the unreasonableness of their demands for proof to the point where Magee & co. throw up their hands and then the swiftboaters can claim to have won.
I wonder why the same level of scrutiny is not expected of the claims from the other side. Why can’t we know more about the anonymous contractor? If criminal behaviour is involved, why hasn’t he gone to the police?
4 solitary man // Sep 16, 2010 at 9:17 am
Mike Klassen and his close associate Alex Tsakumis, along with their merry band of right wing NPA attack dogs, have been running through the streets frothing at the mouth over the past few weeks, all in an attempt to discredit an administration they don’t agree with, based on what appears to be rumors and innuendos. The result so far has only been to make themselves look foolish, petty, and downright nasty.
Now that the Vision team has arrived back home from the China trade mission, and as expected they have officially denied all the allegations and the over the top spin by the right wing NPA blogshere, and offering full disclosure of the city books dealing with any issues of payments to FD. No actual “proof” of any wrong doing has come to light, only vague finger pointing by an anonymous disgruntled ex-contractor, an association based on previous work with FD, and poor invoicing practices between two private companies, certainly no smoking gun. I’m sure that more titillating innuendos and spin is still to come, but I suspect the juiciest naughty bits have all been exposed now … a far cry from the Watergate break-in scandal that the bloggers have been comparing this to, all lusting for heads to roll.
And with respect to Ross, he has always worn his political strips on his sleeve whether you agree with his lefty blogger spins or not, very different then say Citycaucus Klassen who won’t say NPA even if his mouth is full of it, particularly on the CBC when presenting his unbiased views. The constant screaming of white hot guitars and over the top hyperbole has pushed many of the local civic blogs into the same dreadful orbit as tabloids peddling political pornography – congrats to all, a job well done.
Maybe its time you call off the dogs and get back to posting issues of real importance to the citizens of this city … and let the appropriate authorities and Ms Anton take care of any pending investigation of the bike riding evil doers.
5 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 16, 2010 at 9:28 am
I would like to know why FD Element paid for the set-up of the civicscene blog. Jonathan Ross clearly did not pay them to do it.
Why did FD Element pay for someone to do this work?
The civicscene blog is used mostly to attack those who do not support VV.
The FD Element folks provide contract work to the City of Vancouver as well as to the mayor’s personal web site.
These are legitimate questions, Solitary Man. What is going on here?
6 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 16, 2010 at 9:34 am
One more thing:
I would like to see the full billing from FD Elemnt on the website development that went from a $14,000 estimate to a payment of almost double that. Mr. Mcgee mentions that there was additional work done.
There should be:
1) an itemized bill, with hours, tasks performed for any and all projects releated to the full payment of these project(s)
2) a change order (always required by well-run government procurement departments) to recognize a change/addition to the scope of work being performed.
7 spartikus // Sep 16, 2010 at 9:41 am
Maybe everyone should open their books! Hey, here’s an idea, let’s have a Full Disclosure Day! The CoV, FD Element, CivicScene, CityCaucus, Francesbula.com, alextsakumis.com, Miss 604, Laila Yuile…
Full disclosure: Like most Canadians these days, I’m broke LOL
8 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 16, 2010 at 9:42 am
Documents should also include:
1) number of people working on the project and their hourly rates
2) number of web screens being designed/upgraded/changed. If it is a wholesale website change, a description of the work that went on should be included. The original estimate/contract and the final estimate for work to be produced was extremely light on these details.
9 solitary man // Sep 16, 2010 at 10:17 am
@forth horseman As I mentioned, I believe that if the authorities (by rule of law) see it worthy of further investigation they will look into it.
Do you or I know the working relationship between Ross and FD, no, its not our business … they could be business associates AND friends who might of covered the $800 in exchange for other work he does for them, but that’s between them … I have been in small business for a long time and its not out of line to do that, particularly for 800 bucks.
Yes, Ross attacks anybody who is not a lefty (and guess what VV is about the only lefty game in town right now, and he is a loyal vision supporter, is that new news) and he spouts his own personal form of lefty rhetoric, so what? Klassen is the same and does the same for the NPA, big deal, its their gig.
FD has a working relationship with the City and as well Ross, yup. And your point, guilty by association, hmmm that sounds like dangerous territory (read post #3 above).
I’m sorry I just don’t understand why you are so overly concerned … there are REAL issues that this city and administration needs to take care of NOW. It is way too early to get into election style political mudslinging, there will be plenty of time for that… let the authorities take a look at the matter.
On your #8 …. I have been in business for a long time, and unless one is responding to an official RFP that level of detail for the work to be done, and for that amount is rarely done, particularly if you know and trust the one you doing business with… as is apparent in this case.
No point in beating a dead horse. I’m now done with this topic unless something radically changes with regards to new substantiated facts.
10 ThinkOutsideABox // Sep 16, 2010 at 10:44 am
@solitary man,
Yes, Ross attacks anybody who is not a lefty (and guess what VV is about the only lefty game in town right now, and he is a loyal vision supporter, is that new news) and he spouts his own personal form of lefty rhetoric, so what? Klassen is the same and does the same for the NPA, big deal, its their gig.
I don’t believe Klassen has ever “outed” the addresses of family members for someone he has attacked as Ross did. On that premise I must also disagree with what you discount as just “lefty rhetoric.”
Doth protesteth too mucheth and all thateth.
11 solitary man // Sep 16, 2010 at 10:58 am
@thinker
))
you are so right thinker, Klassen and Alex strive to a higher standard of blogging, a kinder and more gentle style, always taking the high road ….
12 Morven // Sep 16, 2010 at 11:00 am
If political views are shaped by optics, the optics of this situation look peculiar regardless of the facts.
Pretty clumsy political advisers, I would say.
-30
13 Tom // Sep 16, 2010 at 11:03 am
@ Allerton and solitary man
So I’m part of AGT’s posse am I? All because I’m calling for a forensic audit of their communication tools and servers?
Please….I’ve never once posted on the Tsakumis site and I’ve limited my posts to this whole debacle because it concerns me and its more than just a tad questionable.
Just because I think Charlie Smith, Garr and your host are past their best-before dates, doesn’t make me part of any posse it just means that I’m astute. In fact Frances herself questioned whether she was getting to old or lazy to look into some of this in her original post on the subject.
Enough questions remain, despite your Vision cheerleading, to suggest that simply opening the city books is going to resolve and put to bed these questions.
And frankly you two, you’d have more credibility yourselves if at any point had an opinion of your own and not taken from the Vision platform. Perhaps you should mix it up a little bit from time to time so that we can see that you actually have your own mind.
Good to know that Vision has good sheep following them, because surely neither of you can think for yourselves. Now go back and let your buddy Jonny know that you backed him up over at Bula’s site like you were asked to do.
14 landlord // Sep 16, 2010 at 11:16 am
I don’t recall that previous Councils sent their Mayor’s Chief of Staff or City Manager to interviews to quite the same extent as Vision.
Sure, sometimes you make a naughty Councillor take the flak on the small stuff (especially the ones who almost beat you in the nominations), but people need to know you’re in charge.
Most Mayors are nominated and elected based, at least partly, on their effectiveness as a spokesperson for their particular brand of nonsense. That’s part of the leadership package. A spokesperson who has someone else talk to the press, especially on the hard questions, is dropping the ball.
So sure, let’s raise the tone and talk about important issues like street homelessness. How’s that going? Or the Olympic Village, any progress on that file while I’ve been away?
15 solitary man // Sep 16, 2010 at 11:23 am
@tom
Sorry but I never meant to insult you personally by saying you were part of Klassens or AGT’s posse, I never stoop so low to out someone specifically like that.
But to clarify, personally I am not a member of Vision, and do not know Ross, Maggee, FD staff, or the Mayor for that matter, period. But I do support the VV agenda, as do the vast majority of citizens who voted them in by a landslide, on the very same agenda…. VV is far from perfect but I like the direction and their intentions (call me crazy, thats fine).
If you want to tag along with this particular right wing blog group that is whipping up the frenzy then thats your choice, go to it, satisfy your curiosity, spend your time digging deep, maybe you will find something so terrible it will rock the hall to its very foundation.
16 ThinkOutsideABox // Sep 16, 2010 at 11:51 am
@solitary man,
Sorry but moral relativism doesn’t work here. Are you fine with that type of smearing that Ross conducted? Or not?
Do you believe that there is no coordination of messaging between the mayor’s office and civicscene.ca?
17 Tom // Sep 16, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Watching the clips on the city caca site and the Tsakumis site, there appears to be 2 different whistle blowers.
Please someone tell me if I’m wrong.
So albeit they are both anonymous, if they are two different people, they appear to be corroborating the same theme, that Mike Magee through FD Element, who uses Ross, is behind all of this.
If you read the contracts from FD to Ross, it claims (out of context) ownership of content or editorial approval of the content.
Gee wiz folks, through their repeated denials, they’re calling each and everyone one of us idiots…or worse.
What amazes me is that reporters like Charlie Smith and Frances Bula (who make their living doing this) get interviews with Magee, who sits there and lies to their face, and they appear to have no problem being duped and taken for fools…or worse.
So solitary man, vision lover, etc…supporting policies are one thing, supporting the continued arrogance, pettiness and ignorance in their governence makes you just as guilty.
18 Tom // Sep 16, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Sorry, forgot the a sentence on a paragraph……early onset of dementia I guess…..
“….What amazes me is that reporters like Charlie Smith and Frances Bula (who make their living doing this) get interviews with Magee, who sits there and lies to their face, and they appear to have no problem being duped and taken for fools…or worse…”
The part I forgot:
You would think they (Bula and Smith) would have more self-respect than to tolerate his continued mocking of their intelligence and experience. (So far only Frances is starting to show some mild discomfort with this.)
19 A. G. Tsakumis // Sep 16, 2010 at 12:17 pm
solitary man writes:
“But to clarify, personally I am not a member of Vision, and do not know Ross, Maggee, FD staff, or the Mayor for that matter, period. But I do support the VV agenda, as do the vast majority of citizens who voted them in by a landslide, on the very same agenda…. VV is far from perfect but I like the direction and their intentions (call me crazy, thats fine).
If you want to tag along with this particular right wing blog group that is whipping up the frenzy then thats your choice, go to it, satisfy your curiosity, spend your time digging deep, maybe you will find something so terrible it will rock the hall to its very foundation.”
Translation: Agreeing with the Vision agenda also includes approving of the character assassination and smear tactics they employ because you might not agree with people who are deemed “right-wing.”
Can you imagine if the NPA had engaged in such activity? Ferris Bueller, Mason, Ross, Magee et al would be singing for an inquiry until they were hoarse. LOL!
I LOVE the way the left always find an excuse for their own underhandedness and then leap to the pulpit if there is even a hint of wrongdoing across the political divide. Shameless.
Oh, and Mike Magee wants to open the books to FD Element sweetheart deals??
Why?
Global have already revealed most of it, after FOIing the docus.
But did Ferris ask Mikey what took him so long? NO! Did she ask him if Vision Vancouver are paying FD Element to pay Ross? Nope. Did she ask Mike Magee if he has any specific knowledge of why his favorite no-bid/no tender contractor is paying an attack mutt for his services, services that serve to burnish Vision Vancouver’s image? Not a chance.
And the band played on…
20 spartikus // Sep 16, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Translation: Agreeing with the Vision agenda also includes approving of the character assassination and smear tactics they employ because you might not agree with people who are deemed “right-wing.”
Hmm…I think Alex might have forgotten some things here. Let me help him out:
In addition, agreeing with Alex Tsakumis on any subject thus includes approving of climate change denialism, Stephen Harper, crude mockery of participants and watchers of the Pride Parade, threats to the employment of those who disagree with you, name-calling, character assassination….
…and oh so much more. ThinkingOutsideABox was silent on these things. They approve! Not to condemn is to endorse! Who will jump higher in their denunciations of the impure!
Torches! Pitchforks! Rioting! Flagellation!
Zzzz….
21 solitary man // Sep 16, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Smear tactics, really… and this coming from a blogger(s) where smearing is the primary currency of exchange.
All I see is a group of ranting bloggers, lefties and righties, seeing who can out YELL the other,and at the same time trying to be accepted into the “New MSM” clubhouse where tabloid bloggers can buy a membership.
Frances is the only civics news blog I now read, other than MSM sources, all the others bloggers have lost any semblance of credibility in my eyes.
If the other civics blogs speak to you then go for it… enjoy the feast.
22 ThinkOutsideABox // Sep 16, 2010 at 12:47 pm
@spartikus You’re not putting words in my mouth, that I did not say, are you not?
23 Dave // Sep 16, 2010 at 1:17 pm
@ Solitary, Spart and others
No where is it written that you will melt if you read contrary opinions. Sometimes you can even learn things, if you allow yourself to have enough of an open mind.
I read Fabula, Civic Scene, City Caucus, Charlie Smith, Jeff Lee and yes AGT. Do I agree with everything they say or do… Nope….sometimes what I read in AGT’s posts make me angry but I rspect that he has cohona’s to say it and make people think! Thats what this about .. make people think whether you agree or disagree.. if you have infromation from other perspectives you can research or decide if that fits with your world view. It’s called living in a society with free speech.
Do I respect their right to espouse their beliefs .. you bet.
Try as you might, you can’t deny that City Caucus and AGT have broken more stories regarding Vision than anyone else.
Do these stories have merit.. you bet.. if they didn’t they wouldn’t get picked up by assigment editors who know a smokescreen when they see one at Global, CBC, CTV, ‘NW and the rest.
If you live in a tight little cacoon and don’t want to read or listen to alternatives in your universe that’s your right but don’t be slagging others because they want to learn what’s happening out there. Traditional news sources like the Sun & Province won’t or don’t provide real news.. check the front page of the Sun online for details.
A closed mind is a sign of a solitary individual.
24 landlord // Sep 16, 2010 at 1:30 pm
The problem is guilt by association. If the Mayor’s office is paying one blogger, it calls into question the motives of the other observers who report favorably, even if there are good things to say (see the endless claims of Frances’s lack of objectivity. At least she got the interview and let Mr. Magee run his mouth. Journalism 101 : give them enough rope).
As a political tactic it is corrosive and ultimately self-defeating. The scandal is not getting caught, but having thought it could work in the first place.
If you have to pay people to say nice things about you, there’s a big problem.
25 solitary man // Sep 16, 2010 at 1:40 pm
@dave
Ok, as always everything is spun out of context. I have never in any of my comments here suggested that one doesn’t read a full spectrum of sources available to come to an informed viewpoint, left/right/moderate/ … but with the limited time we all seem have you have to be selective.
And so what if CC and AGT manage to “break” the odd story at City Hall through deep throat sources, the MSM will pick them up if they are actually real, and I don’t have to wade through all the flotsam. Same as I don’t read the National Enquirer just because they broke the Tiger Woods story and I happen to like golf, gheez.
I gave it a try at the various blogs and I now have a few that I figure are balanced and credible; CC, CS and AGT just aren’t in the mix for me, they might be for you, go crazy.
26 Chris Keam // Sep 16, 2010 at 1:45 pm
type ‘arguing’ into google and it’s auto-fill feature adds ‘on the internet’ as the sixth most popular search. Perhaps that’s all one needs to know? Of course, the image results it returns are offensive and hurtful, but have a kernel of truth. I can’t think of a more appropriate metaphor for online discussions.
27 solitary man // Sep 16, 2010 at 1:48 pm
@ Chris
Yup… right on the money as always. Thx for the wake up call.
28 Frances Bula // Sep 16, 2010 at 2:36 pm
@landlord. Thank you for understanding the basics of journalism. Phoning people up and quoting them does not constitute endorsement and I don’t understand some of the people on this list who seem to believe that you should refuse to talk to anyone whom you happen to disagree with. I thought that’s what they were critical of with the MSM.
29 Tom // Sep 16, 2010 at 3:05 pm
solitary man, spartikus and Frances,
As I read your points on the likes of city caca and Tsakumis throwing the mud around, but I can’t help but think where you all were when Kevin Quinlan was doing this during the NPA’s term.
If you want to call a spade a spade, fine, but each of you needs to take your lump of coal along with it.
I don’t recall Francis ever lamenting about the big bad terrible world of bloggers when Quinlan was dishing the crap. Nor do I recall anyone with the moniker of spartikus suggesting that Quinlan was offside, even when he was.
As for solitary man, nice to cut and run when you’re losing an argument by using the “if there is nothing new here I’m done commenting on it”, line.
Seems to be a double standard here, which is what this blog is constantly accused of in numerous other places on the net.
30 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 16, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Solitary Man, I am glad we see eye to eye on the rule of law!
You say that that the agreements between Ross and FD Element are slight and are private in nature. Well, I don’t agree with that. There is a triangulation relationship here: FD Element provides services to CoV and pays for a Vision supporters blog. I think the relationship needs to be checked out, as I think those vague invoices to FD Element need to be checked out.
For instance, for $27,000 worth of $$ paid to FD from taxpayers, I want to see the invoices and the specifics of the invoices. That is alot of money, and it is a lot of money for undefined services.
Why is this a problem? Considering the odd “coincidence” of the players involved/overlapping, this would help clear up any potential conflict of interest.
Additionally, perhaps we could see CoV invoices to other “preferred” suppliers who are also known supporters of the political side in power.
*What servies were they paid for, exactly? Again, showing hours, scope of project are the responsible thing to show.
*Did any of that money go to fund people affiliated with the current government?
I seem to recall that there are other contracts that fall under the expanded ceiling of preferred contractors—didn’t those contracts recently jump from $30,000 to up to $300,000 per contract, without having to go to tender? I hear you about Mike Klassen’s $30K over 4 years—but I would say that pales in comparison to contracts that are issued at $27,000+ a go.
I think that this IS one of the big issues of this current government. Why don’t they step up and clear it up? Then we can all go on to other things.
31 spartikus // Sep 16, 2010 at 4:01 pm
@Dave
If you live in a tight little cacoon and don’t want to read or listen to alternatives in your universe that’s your right but don’t be slagging others because they want to learn what’s happening out there.
Well..hmmm…gee…hmmm…it seems like just last night I wrote “But, and I’m sure this will come as a deep surprise to Tom and Dave, [City Caucus is] in my RSS feed. And Tsakumis would be too…if he had an RSS feed. I follow a wide array of blogs representing many points of view.” Probably it seems like just last night because it was just last night, in the very same comment I chastised you for responding to something I wrote without actually reading it. Oh dear.
@Tom
Nor do I recall anyone with the moniker of spartikus suggesting that Quinlan was offside, even when he was.
Where was Tom during the “Mulligan Affair”, eh? I don’t remember anyone named Tom speaking out on all the sordid sensationalism then. 1955 is still fresh in some people’s minds, son. And the Komagata Maru? Did you stand up for what’s right?
I understand there used to be blog called “The Vancouver Kid”. It doesn’t seem to be online anymore and alas, I did not memorize it’s contents. Possibly because I never read it. Was there something specific in nature written there you would like me to ritually denounce?
32 Frances Bula // Sep 16, 2010 at 4:24 pm
@ Tom. Does it really not occur to you that what is happening now is at a much different level than back in the day when beginning, sporadic bloggers like Vancouver Kid (aka Kevin), David Berner, Jamie Lee Hamilton, and Walter Schultz were the main commentators on the civic scene, none of whom the MSM made note of. Their blogs were not daily, dedicated blogs with two-screen posts plus video and audio; they were not phoning up local media to get the stories on their blogs into MSM; they were not attempting to break stories at all, but were simply offering comments on things going on; they did not go after journalists that I can recall; and they (and their commenters, of which there were only a few) were not at the level of spitting, foaming-at-the-mouth vitriol that occasionally appears today.
33 Tom // Sep 16, 2010 at 5:54 pm
@Frances,
“Does it really not occur to you that what is happening now is at a much different level…”
This is the internet, did you expect it to maintain an appropriate level of decorum?
If we go backwards in time, there was a day when news organizations did everything they could to maintain balance in reporting…think Walter Cronkite, etc….
There was a day when the CBC was actually respected, before the federal Liberals decided to use it as their own broadcast forum.
Today, there is no shortage of left and right wing skewed channels, and its viewed as acceptable by most, who want to listen to coverage of news in whatever light they personally follow.
Today, Global sells news features to Tourism BC that look like community interest segments, to pay the bills and get out of bankruptcy protection.
@Frances, are you seriously that nieve to think that the internet, which was built on filth, and evolves faster than anything in the history of man, could hold back the slide into the gutter of politicians?
Seriously? Where did you think this was heading?
I’ll also add, if Vision Vancouver was governing as they promised the citizens of Vancouver in 2008, all of this would be moot.
Say what you will about those “… spitting, foaming-at-the-mouth vitriol…” the reality is that Vision started all of this well over a year ago and finally some people are willing to pull off the gloves and dish it back.
What I find unfortunate about the whole saga is that the people they’ve been attacking now for years are finally getting up off the canvas and finally figuring out how to fight for themselves, and people like yourself instead are pointing fingers at them, like they’re the ones to blame.
Had they not governed like they have, this wouldn’t be a story today. Vision only has themselves to blame, and if you can’t acknowledge that, then I’m not sure what to say to you.
34 Frances Bula // Sep 16, 2010 at 6:49 pm
@ Tom. It is so weird having discussions on this blog with people who attack you for things you never said. Your original comment was: Why didn’t people like me go after Kevin Quinlan’s blog when he was writing. I responded: Because we didn’t write about any of the baby blogs then,when they were operating at a different level. Then you respond as though what I wrote was a lengthy diatribe on the lack of decorum on blogs.
As it so happens, I understand where blogs fit in the historical context better than most since I teach a course in the history of Canadian journalism. They are very much like the U.S. and Canadian newspapers of the early 1800s, which were partially funded by political parties and operated entirely as political organs. Every little town in Ontario (and even a few here) had a pro-Reform and pro-Tory little newspaper, where people slagged each other in a way that makes current goings on look like Platonic dialogue.
The internet, by the way, was not built on filth. It was built by the American military. Pornographers took advantage of the new technology, just as they have with every medium that’s come along. As well, the CBC was never respected by Conservatives. Since the day it was created and funded back in 1936 or whatever, it has been attacked by Conservatives as a Liberal vehicle. And Mackenzie King, the prime minister who brought it into being, wrote somewhere that he wanted to create a new medium because the Conservative newspaper editors of the day were so biased.
Blogs aren’t inherently nasty and vitriolic. Some are more so; some are less. It’s true that if you give people unfettered and anonymous access to a public forum for making their views known, they’ll behave in ways that they never would if they had to identify themselves or speak face to face. But lots of blogs are relatively civilized. Why, look at the conversation we are having right here! I personally love the new blog world in many ways. But am I not allowed to express a wish that there be less name-calling?
As for your argument that “Vision started hitting me first,” well, there’s no winning with that kind of argument. Visionistas are convinced the NPA started it first, so each side justifies its nastiness and it all keeps getting nastier.
35 Michael Geller // Sep 16, 2010 at 7:10 pm
WOW! This is quite a discussion. In response to Spartikus #7, I qualified for a Nexus Pass. Those of you who have been through the Nexus Pass review process know that it is much more rigourous than the screening you go through to join the RCMP or get a job in the public service or to be eligible to become a candidate in a municipal election.
I kind of agree with Tom. I expected more from Vision, and that’s why I was quite shocked at the suggestion that they funded CityScene.ca with public funds. I hope it is not true, but if it is, then I hope there are serious repercussions for all involved.
36 Michael Geller // Sep 16, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Sorry Jonathan. I realize it is CivicScene.ca. Although CityScene has a nice ring to it. Maybe I’ll start using it.
37 Tom // Sep 17, 2010 at 5:47 am
@Frances,
If you’re going to go into that much detail, you missed the part of internet history that included your AGW thumping friend Al Gore…..
And I didn’t say it was built on pornography (just where was your mind young…echehm Lady), I said it was built on filth.
Filth of course has many forms and I wasn’t implying it was “built” by filth peddlers, only that it grew like wildfire because of their use of the technology. Early adopters and not inventors are often the reason why anything takes off. Perhaps the typed text didn’t allow for the color I tried to include in my earlier statement.
Back to the matter at hand, who started this mess….
Perhaps you should pay a visit to civicscene’s archives from last year when Ross started to post pictures of the penguin and imply it was Tsakumis to his buddies at Vision, including Magee, Quinlan, etc…and the dozen or so non Vision voters who were keeping an eye on him.
Rumours were flying back then that Magee or Quinlan were directly involved in this, and Tskaumis himself has wrote about a lunch he had with Quinlan where he asked him directly about his involvement. Regardless of Quinlan’s denial, there was plenty of buzz where it was coming from. When you engage in this type of behaviour its pretty darn low.
Whether you agree or not, there are times it is necessary to get into the mud and roll around with the pigs. In case you need to be reminded, Vision are the pigs here.
38 solitary man // Sep 17, 2010 at 7:58 am
@tom #33…. That is certainly a fatalistic view Tom … “are you seriously that nieve to think that the internet, which was built on filth, and evolves faster than anything in the history of man, could hold back the slide into the gutter of politicians?”
I truly believe that everyone and I mean “everyone” has free will in how you choose to conduct yourself and how you behave towards others (on an internet blog or otherwise). If you choose to be nasty and disrespectful like so many on the tabloid blogs (including CS, CC and AGT) then you can only blame yourself for contributing to that particular slide into the gutter, right along with them…. Everyone has a choice in how to engage others.
Your position of “they” against “us” view of the world, and those years of being attacked by “them”, and the I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it from “them” anymore, is really tiresome. Always looking for someone else or an organization to blame for your woes, like Vision, who you say started all this smearing when they got hold of the ring, well VV say it was the NPA who started it, who’s right? … well actually Fox news started it all and the tabloid blogworld is simply copying their poetic style.
Again, everyone has a choice in how to engage others, even you Tom … so be my guest and wallow with the others in the pig pen, defend your principles while standing in the gutter.
39 Tom // Sep 17, 2010 at 9:49 am
solitary man,
On voting day, you, yes you, are going to head to those polls and still check those boxes beside every vision member on that slate, and frankly that says a lot about those principles you claim to hold in such regard.
yeah right……..
40 Frances Bula // Sep 17, 2010 at 10:54 am
@ Tom. You’re right, I misinterpreted your comment about who built the internet, I realized later on when I was processing more slowly. I’m not sure it was primarily used by filth peddlers at first and that’s why it grew, though. I remember reading something lately that says it’s a bit of an urban myth that the top sites are pornography and celebrities. But I just can’t remember where I saw that. I know that when I first started reporting on this new thing called the internet, back in 1992, it was primarily social-action groups and specialty-interest groups that were really latching on to it as a new communications medium.
I’m still curious why you peg Jonathan’s blog as the start of this mess. Citycaucus launched their clearly different, more professional looking blog long before Jonathan’s, where they didn’t just have opinions, as previous blogs had had, but aimed to break stories and get them picked up by mainstream media. They also used a snarky tone that was quite different from the usual old boring news releases from political parties denouncing the other side. A new kind of political campaigning. Even Bill Tieleman’s blog hadn’t really been that ambitious in terms of trying to get stories into MSM. (Though he also had some of the snarkiness.) Hmm, maybe he was the genesis.
Anyway, Jonathan’s blog was clearly just a reaction to Citycaucus. You could almost see the wheels turning at city hall. First, everyone tried to ignore Citycaucus, hoping it would go away. Then, you could see the little bubble forming over someone’s head: It’s not going to go away, so we need to fight fire with fire. Even if it turns out they never gave Jonathan a dime, clearly some of his information HAD to be coming from either councillors or mayor’s office staff at city hall.
(My “on the other hand” inner voice forces me to note that Ctycaucus’s stuff seems to have come from Suzanne Anton at times.)
My ultimate point is: If everyone has decided to get in and roll around with the pigs, where does this end?
41 Sean // Sep 17, 2010 at 11:42 am
As a frequent lurker I find all this to be very amusing. All I can say is that the respect I afford these posts seems to be commensurate with their degree of civility.
Frances, you have a very high degree of civility indeed – thanks, and keep it up.
42 solitary man // Sep 17, 2010 at 11:55 am
@tom
Hey Tom, I can only imagine you are fine man with strong convictions and principles, it shows in your writing, truly. I too have a strong set of values and core beliefs shaped largely by my experiences living and working in the developing world over the past few decades. I have experienced first hand how anger and intolerance for others can quickly spin out of control, dividing people who ironically have the same needs and wants – words can be powerful.
We may not agree on every specific political issue, but there is always common ground… and yes I will vote based on what I see needs to be done, and who best aligns with the view of the world that I want my children to experience.
I support what Frances said in her last comment to you … and in particular “where does this end”. We do have a choice in how we interact.
43 landlord // Sep 17, 2010 at 12:24 pm
“tabloid blogworld”, “the pigpen”, “the gutter”.
Dear me. Did I say that part out loud? Were the mikes on?
Same category as Mr. Magee’s tut-tutting that the blogs are not an “appropriate” forum for policy discussion. Not that there is any policy discussion.
I sympathise with these guys. I, too, am an old white guy. I still listen to the radio. My musical tastes are hopelessly out of date, it hurts to dance, 11:00 bedtime at the latest. Young people have no time for me and my clunky train of thought. I can barely see the screen on my smartphone. A little bit of political power blunts the edge. Just ask Vander Zalm.
It’s even worse in their case. In the politics industry they have to face the difficult fact that 2 out of 3 voters have given up on them, usually for a good reason. The other one-third generally wants a handout of some kind in return for their support during the election and they all have the knives out for each other.
It’s all pretty much a sideshow anyway. Blogs and columns and the rest don’t matter. They are just words. Which of you reads a post here and thinks. “My God, he’s right. How could I have been so mistaken? I’m tearing up my party membership and donating to the other guys.”
Yeah, me neither.
Words don’t put street people (or condo buyers) into apartments. That takes action and there hasn’t been much from this Council. Lots of talk (sometimes too much), but I walked past the Carnegie this morning and it’s business as usual.
Finally, on the question of civility and the discouragement of profanity, vulgarity, dishonesty, rudeness, in short the whole entertainer’s bag of tricks : Remember, good manners are the Vaseline of social intercourse.
44 Tom // Sep 17, 2010 at 4:19 pm
@Landlord…
“…Remember, good manners are the Vaseline of social intercourse….”
This is too funny, but as you wrote above, you’re showing your age……who uses Vaseline anymore? What, no other branded lube comes to mind?
@Frances,
“..If everyone has decided to get in and roll around with the pigs, where does this end?..”
First to acknowledge, I’ve never been a fanboy of city caca, I call it that for a reason. I see the analysis going on in your head, and yes they came out snarky, can’t disagree there. Whether that was because they were bitter (many reasons), or because they decided to dish back to Quinlan – what he started with them, its all sort of mute (see below).
What I do know is that they may have been snarky but Vision took the crown immediately with their attacks on Ian Robertson, Stuart MacKinnon for opposing budsget cuts, and anyone else that disagreed with them for any other reason. It didn’t matter how you opposed Vision or how respectful you were, they were decidedly arrogant and nasty.
When Charlie Smith speculated on a mayoral run for Robertson 2 years away from an election, they went into full attack mode.
The Park Board in particular led by Aaron Jasper and his underhanded shenanigans has been attrocious since 2008. Can this many people be this insecure, or is it a style of governing….I suggest the latter.
If Gregor actually paid attention to the citizens showing up to speak to council, and wasn’t playing lighting boy or IT geek for councillors who also weren’t paying attention, that may show some good will.
If Raymond Louie didn’t act like a god-damn rabid jackal on citizens trying to make a presentation to council, asking them all sorts of questions that half his fellow councillors can’t even answer…
Shall I go on?
So, where does it all end?
The Vision Option:
With a change in ATTITUDE, to accept being accountable to the people, and to end the arrogance that seemed to wake up with them the morning after their 2008 win.
Come on now, with Gregor musing about how easy it is to make environmental change in a communist country, is it that hard to see the parallels with how Vision has comported themselves on EVERY single issue they’ve implemented in this city since 2008.
They walk, talk, act and implement like they don’t have to answer to anyone, and they’ve done this since showing up to work on their first day.
In this type of an environment, do you really expect people to lie down and continue being pushed and shoved not much differently than the average mainland Chinese citizen?
Vision brought this behaviour on themselves by their style of government. Had they governed the way THEY PROMISED, the pettiness and histrionics as you’ve called them would merely be background music, instead of the chorus.
You tell me….is Geoff Meggs going to change his style? Is Raymond Louie? Is Gregor EVER going to take ownership of the giant shoe he keeps putting in his HIMBO mouth?
No. No. and no.
And I haven’t even mentioned Magee or Ballum yet….
Quite simply you don’t fight bullies like that by being nice, you fight bullies like that by punching them back. And you don’t show up to a gun fight with a steak knife.
Claim all you want that city caca was a thorn in their side, so they had to do something…..you know deep down that’s just your bias towards daniel and mike talking.
Vision is to blame for all of this and the only road to higher ground, starts with pulling that size 12 out of Gregor’s mouth and firmly planting it in his ass and pushing him and his staff out the door.
The reply is already long enough but one other thing. If the NPA doesn’t attract the right candidates, we’ll get 8 more years of this mess….4 for the next NPA administration, and then another 4 of bullies like the M&M’s we have there now. Considering the turmoil going on in this city now since 1999, enough is enough. 11 years of shitty governance and soon to be 12 is far too long. (And yes I’m slamming that last 3 years of the Owen adminstration because the NPA mayor and council were a disaster those years).
45 Chris Keam // Sep 17, 2010 at 5:07 pm
“Quite simply you don’t fight bullies like that by being nice, you fight bullies like that by punching them back. ”
I’m not so sure. It takes great patience, but nothing disarms a bully quite as effectively as a sustained effort to exhibit compassion. Certainly there’s evidence to support that idea anyway.
http://www.rootsofempathy.org/
46 solitary man // Sep 17, 2010 at 6:37 pm
@chris… yes, there is incredible evidence, thx for the link. The problem is that human nature drives people to turn to anger first, hardwired in us maybe … compassion and tolerance much more difficult to live by, but then again anything worth anything takes hard work.
47 solitary man // Sep 17, 2010 at 6:38 pm
@tom… it sounds like it doesn’t matter who is in office, you haven’t been happy with the results. Maybe you should think of running in the next election, seriously. How tough a job can it really be.
48 Tom // Sep 18, 2010 at 8:21 am
@Chris…
Jump into the real world. That link has nothing to do with politics and never will.
Try and chime in with relevance for a change.
You often try to be a master of deflection in your comments, attempting to change the topic to fit your ideals and argument. sometimes your so off base it shows how out to lunch you are.
This is one of them. Grow a pair will ya.
49 spartikus // Sep 18, 2010 at 9:12 am
Chris’s link is very relevant – you just disagree with the message.
50 spartikus // Sep 18, 2010 at 9:45 am
I hereby endorse Charlie Smith’s suggestion.
51 david hadaway // Sep 18, 2010 at 11:41 am
@Chris Keam
“nothing disarms a bully quite as effectively as a sustained effort to exhibit compassion”
You obviously didn’t go to my school! That would have been the quickest route to a world class wedgy.
It’s true that as a medium the internet, rather like driving, allows us to switch off normal social restraints. Having acted in haste we can then repent at leisure. I’ve been feeling a bit guilty about an unfair observation regarding Frances made elsewhere. Sorry.
This isn’t an argument for not getting angry about big issues, however. There’s something wrong with anyone who doesn’t feel that way when, for example, they see the disaster of the DTES and reflect on the incompetents and vampires who create and feed off it.
However I for one am going to make a big effort not to assume that everyone who disagrees with my prejudices is a scoundrel and a fraud.
52 Chris Keam // Sep 18, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Tom:
I’m sorry that you feel that way. So often in these discussions, there are accusations that we (and/or our politicians) don’t listen, or don’t have evidence to back up our assertions. Having heard what you said, and offered a differing opinion by referencing a successful program that deals with the very issues you’re talking about, I’m sad that you would respond by questioning my manhood. Fighting aggression with aggression has a rather poor record of success in my opinion. I would note that our own armed forces would be the first to suggest it’s their work rebuilding war-torn countries that delivers greater dividends than the unfortunately necessary task of disarming and/or destroying the bullies who would make everyone share in their politics of intimidation and coercion. As Frances noted up-thread, we all share in the aim of making our city as livable as possible, for everyone. That won’t be achieved by name-calling and machismo.
David:
The program works. What happened in your school how ever many years ago isn’t proof that the program won’t work, but it is proof that trying new things can bring positive benefits and long-lasting changes to our society.
Once upon a time bullying the powerless was perfectly OK (think circus freak shows and similar types of entertainment). What changed? In my opinion is wasn’t subjecting the show promoters to the same treatment.
The open hand will always eventually overpower the closed fist. Nowhere is this more true than in politics.
53 Chris Keam // Sep 18, 2010 at 2:56 pm
oops. “it wasn’t subjecting….
54 Bill // Sep 18, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Chris,
You are a bit contradictory – you say that meeting aggression with aggression does not have a good record yet acknowledge that in at least some cases the bullies must be disarmed or destroyed. And you say that the open hand will always eventually overpower the closed fist. That is just not true and a very dangerous idea when applied to international situations.
55 Chris Keam // Sep 18, 2010 at 5:14 pm
There’s no contradiction. Sometimes immediate survival must take precedence, but charity and goodwill towards your enemies is the only way to achieve a lasting victory. Same with bullies.
56 spartikus // Sep 18, 2010 at 5:32 pm
Not every human interaction is analogous to standing up to Hitler over the Sudetenland.
57 landlord // Sep 18, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Not that anyone did stand up to Hitler over the Sudentenland.
And Chris means charity and goodwill towards a defeated enemy, which means they’re not your enemy any more, they’re now your property. Of course you take good care of it.
58 spartikus // Sep 18, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Yes, landlord, no one stood up to Hitler over the Sudentenland in real life…and if only they had everything would have been all better, or some such….which is sort of the point of invoking “standing up to Hitler over the Sudentenland” tough-guy theory of human relations.
59 Chris Keam // Sep 18, 2010 at 7:34 pm
“And Chris means charity and goodwill towards a defeated enemy”
Please don’t presume to speak for me landlord, or twist my words to mean exactly what I’m not saying.
One only has to look as far as this blog to see that the people who manage to debate with some modicum of manners and respect for other viewpoints gain far more from the process than those who use the soapbox to call people names and boost their egos.
60 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 18, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Since this thread is going sideways, let me throw my thoughts in…
Roots of Empathy—great idea for NA and Europe.
Now, how do we deal with these guys and this type of thinking? And remember, some of that thinking is now being absorbed by our own “home grown’ boys…
Someone needs to tell them to play nice…how would you ‘disarm’ them? Especially since we are so broad-minded as to never denigrate or questions others “cultural differences?”. I guess the women and children need to sort it out for themselves…
There’s this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do
And this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do&feature=related
Oh, here’s a ‘teachable’ moment…though I think there may be copyright infringement (never mind defamation!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWIFhKYiMqU&feature=fvw
61 Bill // Sep 19, 2010 at 11:26 am
And not every human interaction is analagous to disagreeing about bicycle lanes in downtown Vancouver. Chris raised the issue of nation building and how an open hand will always prevail over a closed fist. It is this kind of thinking that makes the world a more dangerous place where an open hand may be perceived as a sign of weakness.
62 spartikus // Sep 19, 2010 at 3:20 pm
That’s your opinion, Bill. But by all means, if you want to live your life with a Manichean scorched Earth, take no prisoners worldview, go for it.
63 Bill // Sep 19, 2010 at 3:52 pm
That’s not what I said, Sparticus. I was reacting to Chris’ opinion that an open hand ALWAYS eventually overpowers an open fist. I never said it was inappropriate in all situations.
64 spartikus // Sep 19, 2010 at 8:32 pm
Now, how do we deal with these guys and this type of thinking?
How do we deal with charts like these? Or pictures like these from Abu Ghraib?
Personally I think one starts with oneself. Live your values, and live them consistently. If you truly believe in their truth, others will be persuaded. It’s my opinion that it’s – for lack of a better word – the “West’s” inconsistency in following the values it espouses that causes resentment and resistance. That and the meddling.
Yesterday Middle Eastern terrorism spoke the language of Marxism. Today it’s Islam. Tomorrow it will be something else. The heart of the conflict is political, not ideological or religious.
some of that thinking is now being absorbed by our own “home grown’ boys…
Statistically “home-grown” terrorism is extremely insignificant, and those high-profile cases there has been have their roots in the resentment the perpetrators feel over the hypocrisy of our government’s actions, actions that don’t match our beautiful words. And let’s face, these home-grown guys were rank amateurs.
65 spartikus // Sep 19, 2010 at 8:34 pm
I was reacting to Chris’ opinion that an open hand ALWAYS eventually overpowers an open fist.
Chris also said other things. Like Sometimes immediate survival must take precedence.
Anyway, this is becoming an extremely strained metaphor in this context.
66 A. G. Tsakumis // Sep 19, 2010 at 11:34 pm
@Frances–I find it more than passingly curious that you lament the deterioration of the civic discourse, when:
a) Since the beginning of your blog you have allowed more underhanded comments to be approved about me than anyone else talked about on your blog. A majority of the time, I don’t even see them since I don;t come here that often anymore. But that’s a fact. Then, you bitch about how nasty my replies are. Really?
b) Where has the discourse lowered? I print docus that are authentic, conduct interviews, do thorough research, and this is “not definitive” to you. What a lark!
Bottom line: If it were the NPA in power and it was revealed that citycaucus.com had been paid around the same time as overpayments were being made to a favorite NPA PR contractor, you’d be all over this. And don;t say no, it’s a fact and you know it.
How can you sit there and deny that the bills that FD Element paid for civicscene.ca are not definitive proof of a connection?
If it were Sam sitting in his office, you’d get out the old connect the dots playbook alright.
But not here. Having admitted you’re not prepared to do the heavy-lifting anymore, and the fact that Vision Vancouver are absolutely your political bailiwick, the answer is as sad as it is obvious.
Your column in the Mop and Pail about this entire matter was a contemptible joke.
67 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 20, 2010 at 2:39 pm
spartikus,
One of the great differences between something horrific that happened at Abu Ghraib and the rhetoric that comes out of that cleric’s mouth on Saudi national tv— we can prosecute the morons (ours) at Abu Ghraib.
We cannot prosecute the morons (theirs) as they present this as an essential part of how they choose to control their population. That is hands off! Isn’t it?
Additionally, we have the spectacle of Hamas conducting an education program that is the antithesis of the one Chris Keam talks about. Yet to hamas, it is every bit as legit, teaching their kids their values.
Yes, we can demo our values. But when others, who do not subscribe to our values or way of life train their own to believe the polar opposite, how does back-biting our own actions disarm this kind of thinking?
By the way, that video on “How To Beat Your Wife’ was sent to me by an ex-pat, working in Saudi, who saw it when it was originally aired. He said that was the game changer for him. That understanding “cultural differences” did not extend to those who violate human rights—especially those found in UN Charter on same, to which Canada, the US and every Middle East country is supposed to subsrcibe.
I believe that while politics is at the root of everything, we still have a very dangerous and politically ambitious religious group in the region that is resistent to the rule of INTERNATIONAL law as well as dedicated to precepts that hardly pass the sniff test of the 13th century, never mind the 21st. While I applaud the secularists in Egypt (many of them women) arguing in the region, they are up against a formidible power. Add to that the added heft of technology (the better to spread—or stop—the word), one absolute nutbar in the region, wealth in the hands of the few, education that inculcates hate (as per my video) and a mindset that denigrates all others (kind of like the US, eh?) , you have a structure that is a hard nut to crack.
Of course, all dynasties have their rise, decline and fall. But in an accerated, nuclear world, is there time to talk sense? Surely a program of diplomacy tied to ability for pre-emptive action is the reality.
68 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 20, 2010 at 4:08 pm
BTW, in an intro that captures copyright, opinion, source protection and possible defamation in one sweet para, here is the inimitable Chris Hitchen’s (Hitch 22):
“I can claim copyright only in myself, and occasionally in those who are either dead or have written about the same events, or who have a decent expectation of anonymity, or who are such appalling public shits that they have forfeited their right to bitch”.
Love it.
Amen to all that, brothers and sisters.
69 spartikus // Sep 20, 2010 at 4:20 pm
we can prosecute the morons (ours) at Abu Ghraib.
Have we now? I mean the ones truly responsible? A few privates and corporals have been put away, and only because those photos found the light of day. But the ones who wrote the orders still walk free. And probably always will.
We cannot prosecute the morons (theirs)
Yes, concepts of sovereignty and the rule of law can be inconvenient, can’t they. Saudi Arabia is an independent nation. They have their legal system, one that allows for behaviours most Canadians would balk at. I think you’re mistaking empathy for some sort of carte blanche acceptance of any behaviour. I would not accept the beating of a woman or a child or man as acceptable. And guess what, I’m allowed to say so.
Where we get in trouble, in my opinion, is preaching our values and then turning around and, say, supplying the government of Saudi Arabia with billions and billions of dollars worth of arms that allows said regime, the regime that permits TV shows featuring a cleric giving advice on how to beat your wife humanely, to stay in power.
It kind of makes it look like we just pay lip-service to our values. Crazy some might think that, I know.
as they present this as an essential part of how they choose to control their population.
Is that so? I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. I wouldn’t take a particular TV show as representative of the width and breadth of Palestinian society any more than I would find the Minutemen, the militia movement, Rev. Terry Jones, Christine O’Donnell or the platform of the Montana Republican Party (which seeks to make homosexuality illegal) as representative of the United States. Yes, Hamas won an election. Some might say only because outside parties so undermined the domestic opposition of Hamas that they were the last option standing. Yes, you’ve found Mickey Mouse preaching violence (I note that particular program was pulled). In return I can cite any number of crude caricatures of and advocacy of violence against Muslims in our popular culture. And before them, the Ruskies. And before them the Germans and Japanese…and on and on….
Don’t get me wrong, cultural values are different. But then, it’s their society’s dialogue. Just like “what do we do about teenage boys who rape teenage girls and post the photos on Facebook” is our debate. Though I’m sure there’s some in the Middle East who would like to use that as a indication of our moral failing. It wouldn’t be fair, in fact it would be downright exploitative. But so is vice versa.
Yes, we can demo our values. But when others, who do not subscribe to our values or way of life train their own to believe the polar opposite, how does back-biting our own actions disarm this kind of thinking?
Yeah, how are those resolute Predator drone strikes working out? We’ve been bombing them for many years and they just don’t seem to be coming round.
I believe that while politics is at the root of everything, we still have a very dangerous and politically ambitious religious group in the region
I’m assuming the group you are talking about here is al Qaida. As existential threats go, they’re overrated. Our might makes right approach of the last decade has…failed.
70 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 20, 2010 at 5:33 pm
No, actually, I am talking about politics at the ‘official’ political level in all Middle Eastern countries, not about Al Quada. Of course, most countries in the Middle East don’t have democratically elected governements, so I can see how you could get it all so mixed up. LOL!
It is a very dynamic game over there and there is lots going on. Officially, many countries condemn Isreal—but they are far more worried about implications of Iran’s nuclear capability and itsconnections into Hamas. Of course, the Saudis both support and condemn Al Quaeda, so again, we see, that ‘brother to brother’ feuds in the ME really need the proverbial score card.
Really, spartikus, the TV show which you poo poo is on state run tv. No chance of CBC running same, I suspect. It nicely supplements the scholastic tracts they hand out to kids in Hamas territory which question the existence of the Holocaust and says scurilous things against Jews as a religion. Now, is that just good ol’ “opinion” as practiced in this here blogosphere. Not!
I know the West has lots to answer for. But in this day and age, surely you are not letting those who, with the help of the state, systematically preach the flouting of fundamental human rights—and encourage others to practice it—with the terrible behaviour of those boys in that field?
Because, in your need to show that there is no difference between Islamic state-sanctioned societal human rights violations and the depraved actions from a bunch of asses from a basically secular country this last weekend–an activity, in other words, that is not only NOT state santioned, but decried by moral people everywhere—well, that is a very long bow to draw.
And a pretty sick one, at that.
71 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 20, 2010 at 5:37 pm
PS sparticus.
Instead of your particular and peculiar brand of moral relativism (it’s there country, therefore let them deal with it) might i suggest you look for an organization online that accepts a donation that aids the women and children (and dogs, too) who are trying to speak out against the draconian religious laws—that again, because it is apparently from the mouth of Allah, enshrine every individual man’s RIGHT to mete out that kind of corporal punishment?
72 spartikus // Sep 20, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Uh…you really, really like to build strawmen, don’t you. Sigh…alright.
Really, spartikus, the TV show which you poo poo is on state run tv.
Incorrect. According to the source of your Youtube clip it was broadcast on LBC TV. That’s the Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation. It’s privately owned. And in fact the source of your clip, MEMRI, has gotten in trouble in the past over the inaccuracy of it’s translations of Arabic material (citation below to avoid comment moderation).
But I’m fully prepared to grant the subtitling on the Saudi cleric’s interview was an accurate. And if not, that there are Saudi clerics who feel so.
Lebanon’s legal code is based on the Napoleonic Code, not the Sharia. The cleric’s views are contrary to Lebanese law.
But too late. He appeared on Lebanese TV – therefore Lebanon as a society endorses his views. Just like we endorse Anne Coulter. Oy.
Because, in your need to show that there is no difference between Islamic state-sanctioned societal human rights violations and the depraved actions from a bunch of asses from a basically secular country this last weekend–an activity, in other words, that is not only NOT state santioned, but decried by moral people everywhere—well, that is a very long bow to draw.
Wow. This is such dishonest characterization of what I said that it’s makes it the opposite. I even explicitly said Though I’m sure there’s some in the Middle East who would like to use that as a indication of our moral failing. It wouldn’t be fair, in fact it would be downright exploitative. Canada, I hope, is going to have a national dialogue about “those asses” and their “weekend activity”. As well we should. But this was a conversation that was about, until you started shifting goalposts, what are we supposed to do about “them”. And yeah, you’ve lost me. I have no idea what you’re saying we should do. You seem to want to appear moral and resolute but you have specified any sort of action.
Ok, Saudi Arabia has a legal code that allows for stoning and so forth, and a society that in many Western eyes does not treat women as fully human. What is Canada supposed to do about it? Declare war? Institute an economic boycott? Be specific here. Does Fourth Horseman take care not to fill his tank with gasoline from repressive states?
Because as you well know the reality is different. I mean just look at the lead story on the Globe and Mail website. CSIS Director McFadden is in Saudi Arabia as we speak building ties with the Saudi intelligence service….
Information exchanges between CSIS and repressive states have caused the spy agency’s practices to be closely reviewed by a litany of Canadian judges of late.
The recurring concern is whether CSIS, in its never-ending quest for information about terrorists, could be encouraging the torture of any prisoners held overseas. The spy agency upholds that it conforms to Canadian values whenever it swaps intelligence.
Huzzah for Canada!
73 spartikus // Sep 20, 2010 at 6:43 pm
Memories of MEMRI
Also this: You seem to want to appear moral and resolute but you have specified any sort of action.
Should be…
You seem to want to appear moral and resolute but you haven’t specified any sort of action.
That is all.
74 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 21, 2010 at 12:03 am
Sparty,
Straw men? I thought that was your specialty!? I must say, I have never seen a poster so singularily misunderstood by so many, as you purport to be!
As luck would have it, tonight I went to see Harvard law prof, famous legalist and Middle Eastern expert Alan Dershowitz speak. Let’s just say, sparticus, that any man that has access and talks with both the president of Palestine and the PM of Israel, probably has a pretty good take on what is happening in that region. We armchair qb’s should all be taking notes. He told some remarkable stories about conversations with statesman that were more intimate and “real” than anything you and I are privvy to, sadly. I was especially smitten by his remarks on a canny Palestinian president who admits to playing all the cards differently, in order to move the chess pieces around. Brilliant and exasperating!
And one thing that Dershowitz did mention that I knew you would just love: MEMRI. If it were possible, he was more vociferous in his condemnation of the videos that appear there than I am.
So let’s put this into perspective: respected legalist, scholar, fact-checker, vast reputation that he would not lightly throw away. If he were to over-reach or bs, he would be outed on the world stage in a nano second. His comments on MEMRI, therefore, stand for me. Stop being an apologist for repressive theologians. It’s quite awful.
You mention our governemnt working with the Saudis–who work with the Americans, Al Quaeda, etc. (Iran, however, not so crazy about). Hypocracy? Of course. I agree. In fact, I believe that until we can make alternative sources of energy work, that we should support the efforts in our own tar sands.
Moral and resolute? Sigh, I hope so. Am I going to claim to be able to come up with how to handle the ills in the region?
I can only come up with two:
* NGO support in the form of funding to groups within repressive countries to support the basic fundamental human rights outlined by the UN
* Continued diplomatic efforts, government to governement.
As an aside, after a very engaging talk about circumstances (peace talks, nuclear arms, oil)and options to get to peace in the Middle East (all parties have varying lengths of ‘red lines’ that can be crossed—and they are constantly in play against each other), Prof Dershowitz said, when asked how he would counsel Israel and on what decisions need to be made, simply said “Isreal has to figure that out for herself”.
That was hardly a cop-out, just ackknowledgement that the players and options in the region are many. But having said all that he has hopes for the current talks as most parties in the region see the rise of Iran as more of a problem right now. Politics makes strange bedfellows, indeed.
Also by his account, Ramallah in the West Bank is seeing an economic boon, fuelled in part by Israeli investment and the support of the middle class Arab business class. Gazans may, in the end, see that kind of economic prosperity as an attractive alternative to what is happening now.
Of course, there are some who as recently as yesterday still declare that the very concept of an Isreali state is not acceptable. I truly wish they would knock that crap off, as it undermines their cause.
Ah well, Fidel finally saw the light, so I guess there is hope…
Dershowitz was also asked
75 spartikus // Sep 21, 2010 at 7:57 am
Very interesting, but you’ve been caught in a falsehood: how do you explain the claim you made that the Saudi cleric appeared on state-sanctioned TV, a claim that has now been demonstrated as false?
I’m familiar with the work of Alan Dershowitz. Especially such articles as Want to torture? Get a warrant, where this respected (to some on the Right) legal scholar not only advocates torture, but torture of the suspect on mere suspicion.
76 spartikus // Sep 21, 2010 at 7:58 am
More morally dubious Dershowitzisms
77 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 21, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Because this program did appear on Saudi TV, my friend. My expat friend living there told me about it long ago. If it originated in Lebanaon, who would know. A video could be re-run onvarious state tv shows. Each would brand it with their logo.
I you are in doubt about the legitimacy of the words/translation, there are many videos on the subject on MEMRI, including one where the female panel members are quite enraged as they engage with male leaders on the subject. Body language does help, I guess…
Re: Dershowitz. Anyone who calls him anything other than a liberal does not know his politics or conveniently, depending on the subject matter, chooses to equate him with the right. However, he is not a far left liberal, which might be a punishable offence to you (see below).
And how odd, sparticus, that you would paint him as pro torture.. Because, here, lo and behold, a passage from that very screed:
‘In a courageous and controversial decision, the president of the Israeli Supreme Court wrote a majority opinion banning the use of this tactic against suspected terrorists’
Of course , you negelect to mention that what Dershowitz is doing is not ADVOCATING for torture but, as he puts it, since torture is generally performed “below the line” in secret in many countries, he is offering a controversial, academic proposal designed to stimulate debate about this difficult issue.
78 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 21, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Re: dubious Dershowiticms.
Unfortunately, the link you provide is a short take form a reviewer, so obviously it was difficult. If you have the article in full, I would love to see it.
Let me get this straight: do you think that war zones DO NOT differ from peace time areas? Do you not agree that the Taliban use civilians and/or civilian shields to carry out their war games? Or terrorize the civilian population by way of threats? Or as Hamas did, kidnap its own civilians (murdering some) in order to root out purported spies or PA sympathizers?
79 spartikus // Sep 21, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Because this program did appear on Saudi TV, my friend. My expat friend living there told me about it long ago. If it originated in Lebanaon, who would know. A video could be re-run onvarious state tv shows. Each would brand it with their logo.
Here’s a much simpler explanation: your friend watched LBC on satellite, which is how most people in the Middle East watch TV. From your description, I’m assuming your expat friend can speak Arabic and is thus sophisticated enough to recognize the host’s Lebanese accents. Plus the show’s credits. But all post facto rationalization of something that is beside the point: Your original claim was this program was state-sanctioned. It’s not. It’s a Lebanese talk show from a private station.
If you want to claim Saudi State Television repackaged it, removing all identifying branding, by all means. Prove it. Your own citation doesn’t. “LBC” is clearly visible on screen.
Re: Dershowitz – I guess you don’t know him as well as you think. Today he endorses Republicans. Nevertheless I said, specifically, he was respected by some on the Right. There’s very few Democrats and progressives that view him positively, no matter what he styles himself.
he is offering a controversial, academic proposal designed to stimulate debate about this difficult issue.
Yes. And that controversial, academic proposal is bringing torture out into the open. He even calls it the “torture warrant”. His words, not mine.
80 spartikus // Sep 21, 2010 at 2:09 pm
If you have the article in full, I would love to see it.
Here it is.
Let me get this straight: do you think that war zones DO NOT differ from peace time areas?
Red herring. International law is clear on the targeting of civilians and Dershowitz wants that standard changed. Ironically, such a proposal would legalize many of the tactics of Hamas et al.
81 spartikus // Sep 21, 2010 at 2:15 pm
I invite The Fourth Horseman to carry on this off-topic conversation here.
82 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 21, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Thanks for the link to the story and to the off-topic site.
Dershowitz indeed says Pres. Obama, who he still supports, is pro arab and pro Isreal—he does not have a problem with that–and neither should any of us. This is what the process is supposed to be about. Win/win, not win/lose.
He also says, and i say, that settlements have not helped bring peace (bad political move) nor did ill thought out tactical manoevers on the flotilla.
Now, supporting a Republican over a Democrat in another race. Does this make Dershowitz a neo-con? I doubt it. What it does show is that Dershowitz supports the candidate who he agrees with as it pertains to his own views on Israel and the group mentioned in the article.
I am not sure where you have the info on Dems. When you say “progressives” he might say “far-left”. He self identied as a liberal. In the US, that is rather a brave thing to do these days.
Re: video. We are into semantics as to which country produced the video–as opposed to the message of the video and many more like it. . It may well be that it is Lebanese in origin, mea culpa, but was seen in Saudi, by yes, my Arabic speaking friend, who maintains that the translation is true.
Yes. And that controversial, academic proposal is bringing torture out into the open. He even calls it the “torture warrant”. His words, not mine.
Come on, sparticus, you can’t be that intellectually dishonest , can you? Dershowitz says that torture has been used in every country in the world (of course, in various ways and to various degrees). As a legalist he poses the question “if you had to get a warrant to do this, would this rid a nation of doing it illegally”. Additionally, I note this thesis seems to be put forward after 9/11, in that he asks the question “if someone knew there was going to be a terrorist act that caused a loss of life” what mechanisms is the state allowed to use, in order to prevent that action, and loss of life, from taking place?”
I leave it to you to tell me how you would handle the Bondian “ticking time bomb”.
83 The Fourth Horseman // Sep 21, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Re: offline conversation.
Duelling drawn butter, at 50 paces…
84 Tom // Sep 21, 2010 at 7:24 pm
And back to Vision Vancouver.
If someone is willing to come forward, and while keeping a straight face, tell everyone that:
…hugging and extending a hand to Geoff Meggs is going to get him to change his ways…
….or hugging Penny Ballum will get her to be just a little nicer…
…or hugging Mike Magee will get him to ease up a little bit….
…or (hold your nose) hugging and extending a hand to Jonathon Ross is going to get him to change…
Well then all I can say is that you’re f–king delusional…and a HACK in your own right.
These bullies need to be beaten back under their respective rocks from which they came.
And there we are back to who started this bloody mess in our city in the first place.
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