Former mayor Sam Sullivan was the first person I heard talk about the idea of “industrial densification” as a way to get more stuff onto Vancouver’s limited amount of land. I’ve heard the idea pitched several times since then.
But every time I talk to commercial brokers or industrial-land developers about it, they just roll their eyes. Building up costs too much, they say. People would rather build one-storey cheap buildings in Kelowna or Calgary and ship their stuff there than get into trying to do complex industrial buildings in Vancouver.
But Metro Vancouver and head planner Gaetan Royer are trying to buck that attitude anyways. Since earlier this year, they’ve been making noises about industrial intensification. There was an update at the Metro Vancouver meeting Friday (here’s my story out of it) and they’re about to kick this out to the public for consultation.
Why should the public care about industrial land? A few reasons
1. As municipalities try to encourage industrial developers to make maximum use of their land, that’s going to mean allowing them to go higher. Richmond has already put that into its official community plan, with the proviso that height restrictions are only lifted where industry doesn’t border residential. But you can see, as areas change, where there could be some conflicts.
2. You or your kids could end up working at some warehouse in the middle of nowhere, with no bus service, if developers don’t get smarter about doing dense industrial development.
3. Industrial land is jobs. We aren’t all going to be documentary film-makers, lawyers or massage therapists.
23 responses so far ↓
1 Glissando Remmy // Nov 14, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Thought of The Day
“Ready to Wear? Old idea. New clothes. Fashion show.”
The Fashion Establishment always come back to… black!
“Former mayor Sam Sullivan was the first person I heard talk about the idea of “industrial densification” as a way to get more stuff onto Vancouver’s limited amount of land. I’ve heard the idea pitched several times since then.”
Idea is as old as the industrial land in Vancouver is. It’s not new, and most definitely it’s not Sammy’s. Heard it several times during the Urban Design Panel meetings of the early 2000s! Many times!
It just wasn’t enough political push, incentive, for Larry Beasley, the NPA, or former mayor Philip Owen to want to get out of the bed in the mornings…
But that was then. this is now. It might work. Hell, it will work, as long as no one cares who gets the credit …
That’s all.
We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.
2 Richard // Nov 14, 2012 at 4:58 pm
Seems like a lot of the industrial land on the city is full of mini storage, car dealerships and retail. None of this is industry and it all can be on non industrial land. A good first step would be to exclude any more of this from being built on industrial land then perhaps charge them tax rates similar to such operations on other land.
3 Julien // Nov 14, 2012 at 5:34 pm
One of the keys here is to get the industry actually involved in the processs because all to often when cities start talking about industrial land those in the room are urban planners and city staffd and possibly developers but not those directly in industry. Doing so would avoid the feeling of a predetermined process.
I’ve been to too many facilities where the plant manager is fully expecting the building to be replaced by condo because of the continuing encroachment of towers nearby and the rising taxes. So maybe not making companies feel unwelcome with odor journals and the continued conversion of industiral to commercial and residential might improve things in the short term.
4 Silly Season // Nov 14, 2012 at 6:31 pm
Absolutely. Land that supports jobs, in places that people live? Bring it. Or keep it, such as the case may be.
Anyone who thinks that the best land use for our town is the one horse industry dedicated solely to building condos either has no foresight, or is completely unconcerned about what Vancouver will become within 50 years.
Industrial, mixed use—hoorah!
5 Thomas Ian McLeod // Nov 14, 2012 at 9:56 pm
I agree with Richard #2 and Silly Season #4. On my walk from Waterfront to Lonsdale the other day via the Lions Gate Bridge, I saw an “industrial” zone in North Vancouver that includes a Christian academy in trailers and a patisserie (with customers lined up out the door.) Here in the North Fraser our “business park” is jammed with dance studios and home improvement retailers. Many of these functions belong in the walkable urban village. At the same time while cottage industrial shops could be located in selected residential areas. (Check out the Sylte Shipyard on the Fraser River; they’ve turned out more than 100 tugs and yachts in their shed in the past 20 years, with the owner living in the house across the parking lot and high-value housing beyond that.)
6 Roger Kemble // Nov 15, 2012 at 10:41 am
There is one other minor point to consider.
Since Vancouver was declared “Executive City” in the early ’70′s every effort has been made to shoo job creating, wealth creating industry away: remember Sweeny Cooperage on False creek were now sits a casino?
Hundreds of jobs for half a dozen low payers, some swap.
Much of Metro industrial zoned real is, as the above posts imply, are occupied by anything but industrial.
And those few hectares that are zoned “industrial” are usually just warehousing with maybe two or three jobs per hectare.
All those containers we see on the waterfront and Roberts Bank are filled with anything we can make, if indeed we need the stuff in the first place.
And we are now contemplating expansion of Roberts Bank onto our valuable and diminishing food asset and job creator the ALR.
Our priorities are are super screwed up. Time for another look.
7 Brian // Nov 15, 2012 at 12:26 pm
When I was in uni, my class took a tour of Ocean’s ready-mix concrete plant on Granville Island. This is a jewel of the idea of mixed use neighborhoods – medium industry with retail, commercial, office, and institutional neighbours. We asked if it was difficult running a plant in this setting and he replied that it was. To keep the neighbours happy, they have to make concessions that surely cost them money. However, he said, none of that outweighed the huge benefit of their location. Aggregates are barged in via False Creek, saving shipping, and they are near the sites they deliver to throughout vancouver, especially downtown. This again saves shipping and lets them provide a better product as mixed concrete delivery is time-sensitive.
I tell this story to show that quite often the value of good location for industrial space can outweigh the sometimes onerous costs of having to be a good neighbour. The trick is finding industries that really thrive on what cities have to offer, and figuring out what specific amenities those businesses need.
8 Bill Lee // Nov 15, 2012 at 1:19 pm
Fabula wrote: ” We aren’t all going to be documentary film-makers, lawyers or massage therapists.”
Hmm. That is not what Kirk Makin reported in the Globe and Mail this morning on new rules in Federal Courts to lessen the self-represented cases before them. Everyone thinks they can argue legal cases (and can’t afford the current rates for ‘real’ lawyers.
Ah, Industrial land.
And we are talking about light industry, no steel mills, pulp mills and the like.
Most of the larger foundries have moved out of Vancouver, such as 80 year-old Reliance Foundry, of the drain covers and bike bollards fame (see Bollards.ca)
And still the land is more valuable as jim-crack housing than light industrial.
Remember “Pamela Sauder” in 2004 and “We are the creme de la creme in Vancouver.” in opposition to having the Arbutus rail corridor being made into a skytrain route.
My old repair garage, Salvidge’s next to the Arbutus rail corridor, is being closed this month after 30 years at this second location to be replaced by condos above soon-to-be-dead retail shops underneath on Fourth.
Protect it, yes. But also encourage living with it in the wasteland that is the West Side.
Anyone remember the anomalies of light industry along Ontario Street west of Main even up to 25th Avenue on the city side which were not allowed on the (sniff) more toney CPR side of the street.
God Damn the CPR!
9 Anne M // Nov 15, 2012 at 2:36 pm
Wait — Salvidge is closing? That is terrible.
10 Bill Lee // Nov 15, 2012 at 3:53 pm
Salvidge’s shut the doors on Friday last, now disassembling the shop in preparation for the demolition of that half block. Go to Continental nearby on 4th or Ootmar’s on East 3rd.
And Madame Bula has mentioned before the condo-ization (sterilization more like it) of the light industrial lands near Jones Tents and Awnings on 11th and 10th off Arbutus rail lands.
I can see the same with the cursed Wall Speculators tower at 955 East Hastings, the Alex Gair building.
11 Anne M // Nov 15, 2012 at 4:05 pm
Thanks Bill Lee for the tips on Salvidge alternatives. I loved that place.
12 Richard // Nov 15, 2012 at 5:57 pm
Auto repair is hardly industrial either. Condos and retail better use of land.
13 Ned // Nov 15, 2012 at 6:39 pm
Better start calling Vancouver the best dormitory in North America and bring more beds. Bed bugs included!
14 Silly Season // Nov 15, 2012 at 8:27 pm
Richard,
Forget that it’s a car rpeair place.
Where are people who work with their hands, to work?
15 Chris Keam // Nov 15, 2012 at 10:09 pm
I assume there’s zoning restrictions that would prevent an automobile service station from setting up shop in a parkade, but that seems like it would be a good fit and a great way to make more use of a facility that’s sitting empty (except for the cars) all day. The only big problem I immediately foresee would be a problem with the hoist, but to ‘blue-sky’ a bit, you could punch out a couple of parking spots in the floor above to provide the height to be able to lift a car off the ground when necessary. Although, I guess everybody goes to a dealership these days, or the speciality brake and muffler places? Don’t see many of the small garages anymore. It’s a shame. Adria Imports in my neighbourhood looks like it does a pretty good business, but I suppose you’ll never run out of customers trying to keep Fiats and Westies on the road.
16 IanS // Nov 16, 2012 at 8:58 am
I’m curious as to what kind of industrial properties people would like to see in their neighborhoods.
17 Chris Keam // Nov 16, 2012 at 11:13 am
In the spirit of fostering a dialogue Ian, why don’t you outline some of the activities you think are appropriate for a light industrial/residential mix? Then we can go from there. I live across from a rail yard and kind of enjoy the Sunday midnight clanging and banging, so I’m probably not the person to provide the initial example, but you seem pretty impartial as a rule, and an example of a typical citizen. What do you think?
18 IanS // Nov 16, 2012 at 11:21 am
A typical citizen? Moi?
I asked the question because, as I read through the thread, I was trying to imagine what kind of industrial site I would want as a neighbor and was unable to think of any. I’ve lived downtown, currently in Yaletown, for almost 20 years now and have no difficulty with density per se, but it’s all residential and commercial.
There were a number of comments posted that seemed to be in favour of this sort of mixed industrial / residential areas, but little consideration as to what was meant by “industrial” in the context.
Hence, my question.
19 Chris Keam // Nov 16, 2012 at 12:00 pm
Well, ‘none’ is a fair answer I suppose. I suspect there’s a huge range of activities that might qualify and I’m not knowledgeable on the topic. Are we talking M-F, 9 to 5 leaf blower repair shop, or 24 hour 7 day a week pillow factory, right? One suspects the idea is great in theory, but in practice doomed to NIMBY-ism.
20 IanS // Nov 16, 2012 at 1:20 pm
Well, my inability to think of one isn’t quite the same thing as saying “none”, but I agree that the idea might sound better in theory than in practice.
21 Chris Keam // Nov 16, 2012 at 1:59 pm
Gotcha, misinterpreted your statement.
cheers,
CK
22 Anne // Nov 17, 2012 at 7:56 am
@Ians But isn’t it more often the case that industrial use is there and it is taken over by residential. Many people live in areas close to industrial areas because they are cheaper (just like living close to an airport). At some point industry gets chased out by rising prices. Land price seems like the major factor.
I think there were areas in False Creek where I could have happily co-existed with the light industrial facilities but they are pretty much wiped out now.
There’s still lots of heavy industry along the Fraser in New Westminster and Delta. The Kruger paper mill, sawmills etc. Some are not too far from residential areas. At some point in the future that land will be home to condos.
23 Steve W Oatway // Nov 20, 2012 at 12:40 pm
2 Points: 1-When I was driving a tour over the Burrad Bridge and pointed out that the Ocean Cement Plant signed a 5o year lease to continue on GI, the ONLY person who said, “that is disgusting”, was a Vancouver resident, all the rest from other cities found that quite normal. 2- Primary Industries, and their reliant business’s are what make people move to an area in the first place, and provide a much firmer tax base than Real Estate. However in light of the fact that the Canadian Government enjoys shipping our manufacturing and such to China, please tell me what we still make here.
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