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Community centre associations wrestle with changes park board is proposing. Park board: We need equity among centres. Centres: We serve our neighbourhoods best.

January 29th, 2013 · 250 Comments

Vancouver’s community centre associations are the closest thing to participatory democracy the city has. We don’t have the kind of neighbourhood independence that exists in Portland, which gives out grants to neighbourhoods to spend as they choose.

But, failing that, the centre associations have operated as the neighbourhood councils.

Now the park board is acting on a move set in motion by the COPE council of 2002-2005, which asked for a core review of services, and is re-negotiating the arrangement that’s existed between the board and the centres for several decades.

Some community centres are willing to negotiate, while pointing out to the board that it will lose if it undercuts local autonomy to the point where centres lose the enormous wealth of their volunteers and their ability to apply for federal and provincial grants for programs through their non-profit societies.

Other community centres are going to war. Two emergency meetings are being held tonight, with language used to advertise them that might make a casual observer think that the Charter of Rights had been overturned.

Here’s my story in the Globe, which only begins to get at the many aspects of this debate. (Which has been exacerbated, by the way, by some inept handling on the board’s side.)

Also including an open letter from the board chair and, below, the full text of my story.

PARKBOARD

Vancouver has had a unique system for running its parks for decades – one that has produced an unusually high level of community support and activism.

It has the only elected park board in the country. And its community centres have been operated through an uncommon setup where non-profit, volunteer community-centre associations raise their own money to pay for some of their own programs, alongside the ones paid for by the park board.

But a park-board move to change that relationship has created an uproar among some centre supporters and a burgeoning political problem for the ruling Vision Vancouver party, which is now accused of being undemocratic.

“Seniors lunches, exercise equipment and daily service at Vancouver community centres could all be axed” and “Do u want radical changes to happen to your community centre?

If not, JOIN OUR EMERGENCY MEETING” are just a couple of the dire messages from the stream coming out of the Kerrisdale Community Centre’s twitter account these days.

On the other side, the park board’s general manager and its ruling Vision trustees say the change is about creating more equity among the 24 centres, some of which don’t allow low-income holders of special passes to use their facilities.

A meeting set for Tuesday, organized by six of the associations, is about to bring that debate to a head.

“People are really getting mad,” said Ainslie Kwan, president of the Killarney community-centre association, which has over the years organized its own child-care programs that are supported by local efforts. “And the park people talk about equity in the city, but we feel each community knows best what it needs.”

Ms. Kwan said the associations, which put in thousands of hours of volunteer time that the board could never afford to pay for, will be relegated to becoming advisory committees. They can help raise money and offer advice on programs, but won’t be able to have the independence and authority they do now.

But park-board general manager Malcolm Bromley, who has been touring community centres for months to sell the new plan, said centre associations will still get to respond to community needs and run non-profit societies if they need to.

He said some community-centre associations have clearly been able to raise money in the way the park board never could. Raycam and Strathcona, near the Downtown Eastside, brought in hundreds of thousands of dollars for specialized programs for their low-income families.

Under the new arrangement, the board would have formal agreements with those non-profit societies so they can continue to raise that money and spend it on the programs they always have, he said.

Mr. Bromley said the main goal of a new arrangement is to allow centres that are not able to raise as much money to tap into the surpluses that some other centres now accumulate every year.

(He stipulated that the board would not ask for the approximately $10-million of surpluses those centres have accumulated in the past.)

And he wants to see a system where anyone can use any centre equally.

Ms. Kwan said the centres have already agreed to that, even though it means giving the whole city access to facilities, like the fitness centre at Killarney, for example, that the park board had declined to fund originally.

The six associations organizing the revolt are spread across the city – Killarney, Hastings, Marpole, Kerrisdale, Sunset and Hillcrest – and have received considerable media attention.

But many more associations, those who see good arguments on both sides, are deliberately staying out of the fray.

“We understand the park board needs more oversight at the centres, we think the arrangement needs to be rethought, but community stewardship is important. We also depend heavily on the not-for-profit operation we have here,” said Amanda Gibbs, president of the Strathcona community-centre association.

 

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  • boohoo

    “By the way for all of you on this thread, know this, the Twitter account “@SaveKCC” as in SaveKerrisdaleCommunityCentre was suspended following a complain/ reprt from someone from the Vancouver Park Board (or City Hall) Not clear yet, but we’ll find out!”

    Proof?

  • spartikus

    Twitter won’t suspend an account just because someone complained – you have to violate their Terms of Service. Usually this is due to spam, but it could also be the account was posting people’s personal information. Home addresses, phone numbers, etc.

    Don’t know what the case is here, but if the U.S. government can’t shut down accounts, the Vancouver Parks Board can’t.

  • Eric Harms

    @Andrew Browne #132, “I think that if you were to start a community centre…today you would never select this fractured model.”
    We have the perfect example already built – Creekside – at Olympic Village (don’t get me started), which is run entirely by Park Board, without an association. Try a price-comparison for programs (zumba, pilates, yoga, spin or?) or facilities (room rentals, fitness etc.). You will notice one glaring fact – in no case is your access there cheaper than at an association-run centre, which leverages other funds primarily for the benefit of it’s patrons. Some efficiency, eh, Andrew?
    “With revenue trapped in these organizations it isn’t being deployed efficiently for the best interests of Vancouver.”
    Andrew, your statement raises a couple of questions: How is the money ‘trapped’, and, who gets to decide how it’s ‘deployed’?
    First, the money isn’t ‘trapped’, even though you (or the present civic administration) can’t get your hands on it; that decision will (in our case) be made in Hastings. We can’t do anything with it, outside of an extremely narrow window of possibility, as defined by Revenue Canada, because we’re a registered charity.

    For sure, we can’t, say, contribute to Park Board’s structural defecit by bailing out other underfunded facilities, in spite of what you (or Aaron, or Constance, or Malcolm, or Penny) seem to wish. We would very quickly lose our charitable status if we were seen as an extension of the civic government. So, decisions remain with our board.

    We aren’t (and shouldn’t be seen as) a quasi-taxation arm of the municipality. We exist to enhance your tax dollar, on a local level. Better put, we concentrate potential, locally.

    At Hastings, we have in excess of $200,000 in ‘trapped’ funds which are committed to capital improvements to your building. These improvements have been put on hold for over eighteen months because of an extremely rocky relationship with our partners, Park Board, and staff. It’s axiomatic – when times are uncertain, husband your resources, and wait. Examples abound and I’ll provide them if the statement provokes controversy.

    I have to ask: Does buying a meal at the Teahouse (say) or a latte at the Blue Parrot in Hillcrest provoke this kind of outrage? Those private enterprises might well be seen as enhanceing the experience of visitors to Stanley Park or Hillcrest, but they also earn a tidy profit for their operators. The difference between those people and your association is that restaurant operators walk away with the profit in their jeans, while associations are compelled to use revenues to give back to the community in which they exist.

    More in under an hour – I’m not used to writing to deadlines!

  • Bill McCreery

    Eric. Well said once again. Thank you for your informed comments.

  • Morven

    Eric Harms # 153:

    Well said.

    The trouble behind all this, and it is endemic at City Hall, is that they develop strategies without consultation. They then make decisions, ask for public views and accord the public views about as much significance as buying a box of paper clips.

    They then attack opponents as partisan scribes without really listening to them. Mind you, the provincial and federal governments subscribe to the same atrophied consultation model.
    -30-

  • Andrew Browne

    @ Eric #153

    Thanks for the reply. I want to say that neither of us are wrong or right, and I’m not here to argue and get all worked up. We obviously have different beliefs about how things should work, and that’s fine.

    That being said, I feel like we have a bit of a case of “I’ve got mine, to heck with everyone else” going on here. I believe that the surplus funds generated at the community centre level should be plowed back into the broader Parks system, so that they can be used most efficiently for the broader benefit of all Parks users across Vancouver.

    For example, while community centre X might want to do some optional, nice-to-have upgrades because they have the capital to do so, community centre Y might have a failing roof and mechanical systems that need much more urgent attention.

    The Parks board can’t fund the capital works at the less “successful” community centre, because all the “profits” are, yes, trapped within each community centre. So the overall taxpayers are funding the inefficient deployment of capital and we have created artifical barriers to that money flowing to where it is needed most urgently, and most practically.

    That’s how I feel about it. *shrug*

  • Andrew Browne

    @ Eric #153

    The difference between community centre boards and private businesses operating in Parks should be obvious.

    1. Those businesses pay very significant lease amounts to the Parks Board.
    2. Community centre boards receive both a facility for free, AND a large operating subsidy.

    So… I would suggest that if you find the two cases to be similar you ought to maybe look a bit more closely at your position.

  • Silly Season

    @Eric Harms.

    You’re doing a terrific job, explaining a somewhat complex situation.

    Which brings me to note that the Park Board message has been quite simple (and accusatpory?):

    ‘It`s all about inequity!’

    If what you are intimating about Park Board-only run facilities is true, perhaps they themselves need to wear two other ‘in” words: ineffective and inefficient.

    It would be ‘in’teresting to have some data comparisons between all the facilities: community association and PB run facilities. Debt, operating costs, recvbles/payables, freelance fitness trainers, staffiing levels/costs, etc.

    Speaking about staffing at Park Board facilities, Paul Faoro, President, CUPE local 15, certainly seems to be very quiet these days.

    Odd, for a guy who usually takes such vociferous interest in Park Board and community centres matters during elctions.

    This is from the Georgia Straight, 2009. I have no idea what happened. Anyone else know?

    http://www.straight.com/news/city-vancouvers-proposed-job-cuts-violate-labour-code-union-tells-labour-board

    Did they lose the jobs, then? Is there an agreement to add more jobs, now? And if finances were so sticky then, aren’t they stickier, today?

  • Morven

    Will someone answer the question:

    Are the surplus or retained funds held in trust for the CC, the members of the CC or in trust for the city at large. I have asked this several times and no one answers. For whom the funds are held in trust has a lot to do with the outcome.

    If they are held in trust, can they be used for advertising? Trustees just cannot use the cash for any old thing including turning it over to the city manager.
    -30-

  • Waltyss

    Morven, clearly, the societies that run programmes at any particular cc own the funds subject to any agreement they have with PB with regard to how funds may be used, limits on the use of the money in CRA regulations relating to charitable organizations and the organizations’ constitution and by laws. I don’t know that the money is in trust any more than your money in your bank account is. Those who have access to the funds do hold them in trust for the society.
    I,for one, have enjoyed and been informed by the respectful discussion between Eric and Andrew. Thank you for keeping the tone civilized even as you disagree.
    Thank you Dave @143 for the information on Dunbar CCA position. I asked when I was there this morning and was told that it will all work out and it will.
    The more I learn about this issue, the more I realize that like most things, it is complex and more grey than black or white.

  • Eric Harms

    OK, OK. Under three hours (life interrupts writing sometimes)…

    Further to my reply to @Andrew Browne #132

    “…entrenched Boards..don’t want anything to change….They have their little kingdom and are quite content. To be expected…”
    While dismayed, I’m not surprised that this kind of slur has finally been voiced. I might well infer that I am included as presiding over a ‘little kingdom’, but it’s never been about me, Andrew. Unless you live nearby, I’ll wager that a week ago, you’d never heard my name. And next month, in all likelihood you will have forgotten you’d ever known it. Not only is that OK, it’s as it should be.

    I have a clear conscience; I sleep fine. The people that matter in my life love me back. I enjoy a friendship characterized by mutual respect with many of my neighbours, and have friends scattered across the city. Were I to croak right now at my keyboard, I’d have to say I’m content.

    I certainly don’t serve to raise my profile, and have no great overarching vision (sorry) to impart. I like to say that my one ambition is to have no ambition. So, Andrew, I don’t care what you imply about me.

    I’m confident that the other association Presidents would say much the same, were they reading here. But I have to answer for my predecessors, who are unable to speak the truth to your calumny.

    A shining example is our immediate past-president at Hastings, who hasn’t lived in the neighbourhood since childhood (he’s in his 70s). When his sons were small, they wanted to play hockey. He said he’d support them, but that they weren’t going to play in some ‘sissy’ West Vancouver league (his tongue-in-cheek joke), but would learn the game on the rough and tumble east side of Vancouver. One thing led to another, and the next thing he knew, he was President of the Hastings Minor Hockey league. He was subsequently scouted by another past president (our current Matriarch figure), and has served tirelessly on our board for over 25 years. Imagine the sacrifice in travel time, gas and personal time, not to mention time spent with his wife and family. And, he didn’t do this for his own community, he did it for mine.

    That’s what I call citizenship, Andrew.

    There is a culture on our board that recognizes that our service is custodial, and stretches both ways in time. That is, we have inherited a healthy association from those who have gone before, and are charged with nurturing and sustaining it, so that we can pass it on to those who will follow.

    It’s a special honour to be allowed to preside, given such a tradition. Among those invested with the office, we at Hastings have had businesspeople, a nurse, a teacher, a consultant, a retired bus driver, homemakers of both sexes, an out lesbian mother, and a B.C Supreme Court justice. People from all walks of life, and the expected ethnic representation of our corner of the city – Italian, Chinese, British, U.S., Scandinavian. Guess which one I am? (Hint: as I’m not female, being a lesbian is out)

    Being President has taught me two things:
    – I try to take the office very seriously as per all of the above, and,
    – I try not to take myself too seriously at all.

    Maybe you should get involved, Andrew. Go to your AGM at your centre, get elected. It’s easy. You’d be living the dream then, boy! At our board meetings we have our choice of box juice or brita water and we don’t even have to wash our cup, if we don’t want. All the stale Costco mixed nuts we can grab off the paper plates. We have to serve on at least one committee (program, finance, fitness, youth etc.) so that’s a further time contribution, but every year we get a t-shirt, just like all the other volunteers in the association.

    Quite the little kingdom we’ve got going…

  • Andrew Browne

    @ Eric #161

    The mere fact that some people don’t like something isn’t a reason to not do it. And, as a whole, community centre boards I’m sure are relatively content with the status quo. But their responsibility is not to the entirety of Vancouver residents. Their scope is narrow. We should not be surprised that they would oppose this, but we must compare that opposition to their mandate, which is narrow. Combine that with the simple fact that people go unhinged when things change, and yeah, differences of opinion abound.

    Some of the community centre boards have been reacting with a lot of political hyperbole, and others are just keeping their heads down and focusing on their task of running their local. I’m not attacking you, and you’re taking general comments way too personally and ascribing to me a whole lot of negative intent. It is apparent from comments in the media that some boards DO seem to operate as little kingdoms – and to call it a slur is kind of odd. It’s an opinion. You seem to think I meant little kingdom means perks or graft – but what I mean is that some people (and I have seen many times) get a high from their petty power structure. It happens, and those kind of people don’t like being reminded that, actually, the taxpayer owns their building at the end of the day, and that there is another group of people out there who have to make decisions that are for the best of Vancouver residents as a whole, and not just for that community centre.

  • Higgins

    Gee, Frances @149
    Like “gman” once wrote re. the future of the Neighborhood Engagement Force, only few months ago. All “they” need is for one “citizen” to voice their concerns (in this case LOL, who-else but Waltyss) about the use of language, then another newbie to the blog to second that and poof… comments are disappearing! If you read any comments on this thread that point out at others… it is a complete mess.
    Mira is right at 150 (soon to be who knows what number)… 1984 was way overdue in Vancouver.
    Tell us Frances, what did you do different here than Penny Ballem didn’t do to the City Hall staffers when she imposed her draconian, undemocratic media gag order?
    oops, I may have just deleted my own comment by asking that…

  • Boohoo

    Higgins,

    This is her private blog. She can post, delete, edit as she see fits and there’s not a single thing you or I can do about it. You don’t like that? Don’t post here.

    If you can’t tell the difference between a private blog and a public government, I’ve lost what little hope remained.

  • Higgins

    Andrew Browne #156
    “Thanks for the reply. I want to say that neither of us are wrong or right ”
    That’s the biggest lie of all.
    No Andrew, the Associations are RIGHT, and you and the Vision-Vancouver-Dominated-Park-Board-City-Hall-Bromley-Ballem are WRONG!
    Eric Harms, thanks for explaining how your association operates and how you manage your funds. keep doing that. Vancouver citizens are going to back you up on that, enough with this wish for centralized control inside the City Hall.
    Vision Vancouver, at all levels of municipal government need to go! Simple as that.
    Again Andrew Browne 162
    “The mere fact that some people don’t like something isn’t a reason to not do it.”
    I’ll like to say to you the same thing that older man said to Trevor Loke a few nights ago “Who … do you think you are?” … but I can’t 🙁
    So what you’re saying is if four hundred people gathered in one room against one player for the Vision apparatus, they don’t matter, no reason to bother? You people always know better! Say I’m wrong.
    Another typical condescending comment from a Vision fan, even when faced with well written arguments.
    Why can’t I call this guy names, Frances? 🙂

  • Higgins

    ha, ha, ha who else… boohoo
    Let me respectfully bring to your attention post Numero 11 by none other but your pal Waltyss.
    Maybe Frances, and I’m just throwing it out there, you should ban the following words too:
    troll… detox (only when it doesn’t work)… hash induced… narcoleptic vision…
    Hypocrisy is a bitch, eh!?

  • IanS

    @Andrew Browne #162:

    “some people (and I have seen many times) get a high from their petty power structure. It happens, and those kind of people don’t like being reminded that, actually, the taxpayer owns their building at the end of the day, and that there is another group of people out there who have to make decisions that are for the best of Vancouver residents as a whole, and not just for that community centre.”

    Interesting exchange of perspectives here, between you and Eric.

    Eric, if I understand him correctly, sees his involvement as a contribution. He, and others, volunteer a good deal of their time and put a lot of effort into their associations. They give a lot and, in return, want to feel that they’ve made a difference and have had an impact, that they have made their communities better.

    Your seem to see them more as a level of entrenched bureaucracy, trying to hold onto their “little kingdoms” at all costs and contrary to the greater good. (I say that with no negative intent; just my take on your take, if you will.)

    I can see both points of view.

    However, the distinction between the volunteers and just another needless level of bureaucracy lies (IMO, anyway) in the fact that they are volunteers and their involvement adds / creates value. They are not a transaction cost.

    Now, it may be the case, as you suggest, that these little kingdoms, and the royal volunteers which populate them, can be done away with, freeing the trapped funds to be distributed equitably by the Parks Board. However, without the involvement of these volunteers, I suspect (from everything I’ve read about this) that there will be a good deal less money around to redistribute, equitably or not. That will equate to fewer services and higher costs.

    And, I confess, I’m skeptical that all of the funds redirected into gov’t general revenue will be as effectively used as they might be by the individual associations.

  • Andrew Browne

    @ IanS #167

    “Your seem to see them more as a level of entrenched bureaucracy, trying to hold onto their “little kingdoms” at all costs and contrary to the greater good.”

    It’s not that the community centres are doing a BAD job, or that all the boards are bad bureaucracy (I don’t think they are), or even that a board who DOES have a president who has little kingdom syndrome is a day to day problem necessarily. Maybe they run a tight ship, and that’s great.

    The only point I’m trying to make is that the individual boards are NOT tasked with figuring out what is the best for the overall Parks and Rec system. It’s not even in their universe. So we shouldn’t be surprised that they haven’t given it much weight compared to the priorities of their particular centre. And that doesn’t make them bad or evil, it’s just the reality of their passionate focus on their local centre. Furthermore, we shouldn’t drop everything and never evaluate how we do business just because some of the community centres don’t want to go there. It’s not that we need to do away with volunteers or local boards, it’s that we need to understand the lens they are seeing things through.

  • Morven

    If the Parks Board is so confident of it’s powers, it may as well petition the courts to set aside any decisions made by Community Associations.

    Settle it once and for all.

  • Frances Bula

    @Higgins. Because, as you’ll notice, other people manage to make their case without calling people names. How about you learn that skill?

  • Frances Bula

    @Higgins. I have deleted a number of posts on both “sides.” I didn’t go back as far as the one(s?) you mention, only far enough to bring the temperature down.

    By the way, I haven’t ever banned anyone completely, but you are getting kind of boring and I’m pondering it. Yes, I can do that. As someone else has pointed out, it is actually my blog, not public government. I’m sure you respect the principles of free enterprise, right?

    In addition, as any number of people who are watching the way that blogs evolve have noted, one of the things that kills interesting, thoughtful discussion is comments like some of those you have posted. Many bloggers who want their blogs to become real forums for discussion and not Lord of the Flies re-enactments are outright banning certain kinds of people and comments because of their negative effect on thousands of other potential commenters. When I’m more peppy, I’ll post the most recent article I read on this subject.

  • gasp

    To Andrew Browne:

    Where did this idea of acting “for the City as a whole” come from?

    As public servants, our politicians and civic employees are expected to act in the public interest, ususally defined as:

    Public Interest:
    Something in which the public, the community at large, has some pecuniary interest, or some interest by which their legal rights or liabilities are affected. (Black’s Law Dictionary)

    Therefore, it is the public servant’s responsibility to act in the interest of the communities affected by their decisions, not to act in the interest of some ephemeral concept of “the City as a whole”.

    Furthermore, Parks and other lands that the City holds title to are supposed to be held in public trust for the benefit of the communities in which they are located.

    Public Trust:
    A trust is a right of property, real or personal, held by one party for the benefit of another. A public trust is one constituted for the benefit either of the public at large or of some considerable portion of it, answering a particular description. . .(Black’s)

    Many of the parks in this City only became City property AFTER they were handed over to the City by members of the communities in which they are located. It was community members who negotiated directly with developers and landowners to obtain and, in some cases, pay for these amenities. The Parks Board was later tasked with maintaining these parks and facilities for the benefit of those communities, and does not hold them for the purpose of reconstructing them for City Hall’s or Vision’s or anyone else’s benefit!!

  • Eric Harms

    @Morven #169,
    I can’t imagine the courts are necessary, except to interpret our Joint Operating Agreement, which (for a legal document) is fairly unambiguous and clear. Like it or not, Park Board is bound by the document it signed, just as we are. The JOA is still in effect until a new one is agreed on.

    As I’ve previously stated, PB senior staff hate our JOA with a passion, because they can’t see a way to permanently get at our funds. They try constantly and sometimes succeed, as in 2010, when they took Hastings to the tune of $42 K.
    Others have similar stories from that year.

    To staff, the associations are like the tired, bad old joke about women – You can’t live with ’em…

    Last year, Hastings association brought in $206,000 in grants to underwrite programs delivered. These funds were from a variety of agencies, including senior levels of government, and private charitable institutions. As a rule, grants don’t cover the cost of the program they support – they’re not supposed to. Still they remain a major source of funding, but with a big caveat – they are not available to just anybody, and certainly not to a municipality. So, like the old joke, they can’t live without us.

    Well, they can. They just don’t want to. How would they explain to the parents in the Family Drop-In?

    Again, it wouldn’t be necessary to go to the courts. The JOA has an opt-out clause that applies to both parties. Written notice, and after 90 days, the partnership is dissolved. Senior staff have threatened it with some associations, but it hasn’t happened.

    Stay tuned, though.

    For those really interested, PB have called a special meeting to discuss this matter on Monday evening. The latest information I have is 6:30 PM at West End Community Centre, on Denman. A sizable room, but parking’s a b–ch. Use transit, maybe.

  • IanS

    @Andrew Browne #168:

    “It’s not that the community centres are doing a BAD job, or that all the boards are bad bureaucracy…”

    I get that. Your point, as I understand it, is that they are unnecessary and, ultimately, inefficient level when viewed in context of the entire system.

    (As an aside, I think your term “bad bureaucracy” is almost a redundancy.)

    “The only point I’m trying to make is that the individual boards are NOT tasked with figuring out what is the best for the overall Parks and Rec system. ”

    True. As I understand it, they are societies, tasked with administering their particular community centres. These societies are, in turn, populated by members of the community, who are volunteering their time to raised and administer funds for the benefit of their particular community centres.

    “And that doesn’t make them bad or evil, it’s just the reality of their passionate focus on their local centre.”

    It’s more than a “passionate focus” (though I suspect they would like that description). It’s the terms of their society articles.

    “It’s not that we need to do away with volunteers or local boards, it’s that we need to understand the lens they are seeing things through.”

    Well, I think posters like Eric have provided that lens.

    I do agree that there’s no need to do away with the volunteers and local organizations. Unfortunately, if this plan goes through without compromise, I suspect that will likely be the result. It’s not, as has been suggested earlier in this thread, a matter of the volunteers “not getting it”, but the removal of their ability to make a difference.

    I would imagine that the “reward” for participating and volunteering is the ability to make a difference in the community; to have a positive impact. Who wants to volunteer to raise funds which will simply be siphoned off into some gov’t general revenue, maybe to be used for a community centre, or maybe not?

  • Terry M

    Wow!
    My little post is gone!
    Waltyss proposes, another one seconds his motion, and …the only Vision Vancouver/ Penny Ballem approved blog gets the go ahead in self censoring. Oh, mama!
    Then, surprised Vision Park Board members ask themselves ‘why people don’t love usFrances?”

  • Eric Harms

    @IanS, #174,
    You have no idea how moved I am to log on this morning and read your post. It says exactly what I would have and it’s all the better for having come from someone else. All points are spot-on, and it means that others Get It. If I’ve contributed in any way to your understanding, then my efforts have been worth it. Go forth and multiply!

    I want especially to underline what you’ve said regarding what Andrew terms our “passionate focus”. We are indeed constrained by the oath we swear to our associations. It’s not that we’re myopic (more eye analogies), but that we cannot accede to something that would be harmful to the welfare of the association. And it doesn’t mean that we lack a broader perspective, but that, when we’re wearing our Association hat, we are obligated to speak from that commitment.

    Many years ago now, a very wise person remarked to me, “everything is political”. It is my great good fortune that she agreed to marry me. By definition (unless one lives the life of a hermit), virtually all acts are political – how we drive, what we eat, the clothes we wear. Or, even, if we wear clothes. But, let’s not confuse what is political (upper- or lower-case ‘P’, you choose) with what is partisan.

    A perfect example of the issue can be found on this blog. Frances has to cut (or threaten banishment) because of this simple error. Not every aspect of life goes well or not according to how one votes. We don’t have to see NPA conspiracies in the sock drawer. If the newspaper gets soggy on the front porch, it may not be Vision’s fault.

    So it is with work on the local level. Many/most of the people I work with every day have, on a personal level, done some political analysis. It follows that they will have formed some partisan loyalties, which may be confined to Voting Day. Some may have (gasp!) actually joined a party. My personal experience is: It Doesn’t Matter. I have great respect – and, in some cases, fondness – for people I work with from all across the partisan political spectrum.

    Raising funds for the school playground blurs partisan lines. People can argue till they’re blue in the face (and do, here) about social causes of crime, or the efficacy of the present penal system, but getting B&E’d by a crack addict is the same experience, how ever one votes. Gee, maybe we should start a Block Watch…

    Of course, one always runs the risk of being dismissed as parochial or picayune, but it really is quite liberating to work on the local level and contribute in small, incremental ways with the people who share one’s neighbourhood. There’s a wealth of knowledge and energy in the city’s communities that is largely untapped, but successive administrations (while giving lip-service to it) seek to either stifle it, or centralize it.

    Shame, really. I think we’re all the poorer for it.

  • Ms. Jones

    Eric Harms, hats off to you, Sir!
    I am an old reader of Frances blog. Sometimes red hot opinionated comments are flying to the left and to the right. Unfortunately, I have to say it, Ms. Bula is very partisan… towards Vision Vancouver, and this late “initiative” to “ban words, comments, people” comes at a moment when the wave of a huge disapproval of Vision policies and actions, at all levels is to big to dismiss. Then your astute comments related to this matter opened a big ‘neutrality’ gap, as your persona could not be associated with the “enemies of Vision Vancouver” types on this blog, nooo…
    Then with a little help from the worst possible commenter on this blog, the ‘ban’ rubber stumping was in. One hot, one cold. In a way this is a confirmation of sorts. Vision Vancouver is running on empty. Peace.

  • waltyss

    gasp @#172. I suggest that you are defining public interest unduly narrowly. The PB like any other public body is obligated to act in the best interests of the community as a whole. In this case, that is the City of Vancouver. Obviously different people have different definitions of what that may mean and the usual ultimate measure of that is at the ballot box, Again, there are exceptions such as when a councillor or parks or school board member lets personal pecuniary interest get in the way of their responsibility to the community they serve.
    I believe the point that was being made is that while any community centre association is obligated to act in the best interests of their members as may by modified by any operating agreement, that society has with the COV/PB the PB has to act in the best interests of the City as a whole. To my mind at least, this is pretty obvious.
    Most people would agree that the COV/PB have approached this in a particularly ham-fisted way and have been remarkably bad at setting out their concerne (one need only look at Niki Sharma’s attempt to explain or Trevor Loke’s unfortunate tant). However, putting a partisan spin on it is hardly helpful as I understand from some of the posts and other articles, that this is a long standing and ongoing issue with boards of all political stripes. It’s just that the Vision PB was stupid enough (or perhaps it was the City Manager) to take it on and to do so without public consultation and without recognizing the incredible amount of political capital and good will most if not all of the CCA s have built up.
    They appear to have solved one issue: universality of access. And who knows, maybe we needed a good public row to solve it. Often, that is the case.
    For the remaining issue, which is the equity issue, it seems to me that with good faith on all sides, it can be solved in a way that allows the autonomy of each community centre to continue (in most cases, most people seem to agree they are doing a good job and should continue) while also recognizing that the city does own all of the buildings and that some sharing of the “wealth” will have to occur, at least for those CC’s that have fallen behind not because of incompetence or laziness but because their catchment areas simply cannot generate either the money or the volunteers. By the way, Eric, I am not suggesting that Hastings or any of the CC’s are doing anything wrong, but it may be that some areas may be largely composed of immigrants holding down several jobs to stay afloat and without the resulting energy to volunteer. I don’t know even as I do know that the COV/PB approach has been remarkably ill advised. For the CC’s and their members, you guys have certainly gotten their attention (good on you for that) and my only caution would be not to let that get to your heads. In my view, a sort of tax on programmes throughout the system with the money going to subsidize programmes in less fortunate or at least organized areas.
    The irony may be that somewhere like Hastings may be able to offer cheaper programming simply by virtue of large numbers with the irony that the same programming in a poorer areas is more expensive because fewer kids or adults can afford to attend.
    Maybe a mediator is the answer. You guys need someone like Vince Ready the labour mediator.

  • brilliant

    @boohoo 148-while you may call or Vision’s dusbanding, where have you ever been critical of their actions? The community centre grab is just the latest in a series of actions where they deliberately flout neighbourhood wishes. Surely the first rule for a civic politician should be respinsive to neighbourhood
    concerns? Hopefully Loke will get kicked to the curb in 2014 for his insulting rant.

  • Morven

    The city elects Parks Board Commissioners to oversee the activities of staff and develop strategies to better the citizens of Vancouver.

    hile they entertain input from city hall and city staff, they, not city staff are responsible for the policies and their adherence. That is the delegated model. If it is not, why need PB commissioners at all.

    It so happens that the elected PB representatives delegated some if not all local responsibility to community centre associations who act on behalf of their local community, for good or for bad. There is nothing wrong with revisiting how services are provided, how overall strategies are achieved and making recommendations for change, if needed.

    It needs all the stakeholder to weigh in.

    It needs clarity on who makes the decisions – staff, PB commissioners or Vancouver City elected officials.

    That said, the recent actions of city staff and PB commissioners bear scrutiny.

    At times it seems as if duly elected representatives are deferential to staff. It seems at times as if even they are not the ones developing strategies, even if that is their mandate. It seems at times as if the PB, elected and unelected, has not the slightest idea of stakeholder involvement. I know that is not the case from attending PB meetings.

    This time, they are curiously muted (well many of them).

    My own experience is that the staff engage strenuously in consultation in positioning a 40 foot by 40 foot childrens play area and barely engage the stakeholders in any strategic review.

    They seem to have little feel for the ethics of delegating powers to community associations then wanting to take the powers back at the stroke of a pen.

    There is nothing more disconcerting in public consultation when unpaid volunteers with a passion for their community are disregarded by elected and unelected PB officials.

    My experience in the mining industry is that it needs the wisdom of Solomon to repair fractured credibility. Not impossible but it needs some mea culpas for our esteemed PB commissioners.
    -30-

  • boohoo

    brilliant,
    I don’t know enough about this debate to really have an informed opinion. Rather than just spout of railing against somebody cause it feels good, I’d rather be informed.

    I’ve called out vision for the Cambie Corridor Plan a number of times, I laugh that it is ‘award winning’. The hyper politicization of Vancouver is bs too, hence my calling for the whole party system to be abolished. There are others I’m sure.

    But when I come on here and read all these asinine posts comparing gregor to stalin, or vision to the nazi propagandists or flat out calling the residents of vancouver stupid, I guess I get my back up about the level of ignorance in those comments.

  • Eric Harms

    @boohoo #181,
    If you ‘don’t know enough about this debate to really have an informed opinion’, what would it take? Amidst all the stridency, there have been reasoned posts pro and con. If you go through my posts, you will see that I’ve been careful to avoid putting a party in my crosshairs. That’s because I think that people should be concerned because it’s bad policy, not because of which way their vote goes.

    To learn more, and express your opinion to elected officials, please go to
    http://www.myvancouvercc.com/default.aspx#13600005398231&action=collapse_widget&id=9345871

  • boohoo

    Eric,

    This thread has provided a lot of good information–going into this issue, I didn’t even know it was an issue. But I’m not comfortable basing my opinion on the comment section of a blog. The information is valuable, but I take it all with a grain of salt.

    Since I don’t really have a horse in this race, I’m not passionate either way, I can see both sides of the argument. And like 99% of these kinds of things, the reasonable solution lies somewhere in the middle.

    What I find disconcerting, and thanks for the link to that website, is exactly what’s on it. ‘The threat’ is one of the drop downs. That’s just scare tactics. Your list of things City Hall wants to do…well, again, it’s just meant to drum up fear.

    So, while I’m skeptical of the park boards motives, seeing webpages like that irks me because it doesn’t further the discussion, it doesn’t make conversation possible. It just creates ‘us vs them’ which of course leads us nowhere. At this point, it’s irrelevant which course of action is taken–if the park board pushes it through, it’s big government dictating how to run our lives etc etc. If the park board does not, it’s the people standing up and fighting off the big scary government etc… Neither of those builds any foundation for anything positive moving forward. It just sets the stage for the next ‘fight’ on whatever issue comes up next.

    For me this is just a small example of the bigger public consultation issue. Clearly the entire system is broken. For good or bad, for whoever’s fault, it’s broken. For me, figuring that out is the real issue.

  • Michelle

    Eric Harms #182
    Well said. And not only that, all your comments on this thread was pure information. And what I got from that is clear like daylight the present municipal party in power and their handpicked goons are not suitable for office. “Power grab” is a very mild way to put it, is more like a thirst for more power and money. What’s also interesting is boohoo spin around the matter, even after so much material being thrown back and forth in here, he says he don’t quite understands it enough to make an opinion, LOL! Talk about changing the subject. Ta da.

  • Andrew Browne

    This speaks volumes about how surplus funds are, again yes, “trapped” in the associations and not available to be deployed for the most efficient use of capital.

    https://twitter.com/StepanVdovine/status/298506642465628160/photo/1

  • boohoo

    Michelle,

    I’m not a politician, I’m not ‘spinning’ anything. If you don’t believe me/like what I’m saying/think I’m lying, feel free to ignore me.

  • waltyss

    Michelle:
    With some effort, the heat had been reduced and a respectful discussion was occurring. And then you came on. How does calling someone, anyone “handpicked goons” advance anything.
    The COV/PB approach has been less than ideal but there is a real issue here. It seems that almost everyone of good will acknowledges it, including Eric.
    One issue it appears has been solved: universality of access. And it was a real issue. Some community centres were denying access. I have always considered it strange that I had to purchase a membership at each community centre even though they are all owned by the city.
    However, maybe even because of this blowup, that issue appears to have been solved.
    What remains outstanding is the issue of the divsion of excess funds. The approach of the COV/PB has been illadvised but some of the verbiage from the 6 CC’s that have banded together has been a bit extreme (sort of like your language). 15 community centres are quietly involved in trying to resolve this. While I think the actions of the 6 in going public have helped immensely, I also think this matter will be resolved.
    While I have great respect for Eric’s comments, they were hardly “pure information”. There was spin which is interpretation of facts and selectively choosing facts. That is not criticism but what debate usually consists of.
    What it does not usually consist of is namecalling. For that, I refer you to the article posted by Frances on the other thread.

  • Michelle

    Andrew Browne 185
    What a joke. Stepan vdovine or whoever put that cheese graph together don’t even know how to do math… %! Apparently, for the Vision Vancouver account Executive, 99% + 2% = 100%
    Now it figures why they have problems with money!

  • waltyss

    Michelle @188. In any kind of graph or number crunching, percentages will commonly not add up to 100% usually because of rounding. Hardly an error.
    But, Michelle, let’s humour you and assume that it is an error in adding. Are you disputing that the difference in contributions between the PB and Community Centres is approximately 50-1. If so, have you got any facts to back your position up or is it your position that is the joke.
    And by the way, they are usually called pie charts.

  • Terry M

    There comes Waltyss 187 Just like they said in USA, first they take our guns, then they take our liberties. Don’t know what you found so appalling with Michelle’s post. Take a break please!
    Andrew 185
    Posting that tweet was arrogant of you and foolish as per Michelle pointed out in 186 is wrong. No math skills in this Stepan executive ! LMAO!
    So, there could be a future in 2014 after all for Trevor Loke … Vision Vancouver executive is always looking to recruit from within their failed candidates.

  • Andrew Browne

    Rounding and/or typographic errors aside, does anyone have anything to say about the substance of that slide? Whether its 99 and 1 or 98 and 2 is kind of beside the point.

    I don’t know why I bother here sometimes. I must just enjoy hearing about how arrogant and foolish I am. 😉 Love you too.

  • IanS

    @Andrew Browne #191:

    You, sir, are arrogant and foolish! 😉

    But seriously, how does that slide speak to any funds being “trapped”? If accurate, the chart seems to suggest that the funds raised by the various associations are insignificant, in the grand scheme of things.

    Also, the chart says nothing about the “efficient” use of the funds.

  • Eric Harms

    All the slide says (and it’s taken out of context, but that’s another story)…all it says is that for new facilities, the vast bulk is paid for with tax dollars.

    Honestly? Can anyone be surprised at that statement? New community centres run about $27 Mil give or take. Who has that kind of cash – ‘trapped’ or not – lying around?

  • Glissando Remmy

    Thought of The Day

    “It ain’t over till the Vision City Manager sings, or something like that…”

    So now, we have lower ranked Vision Vancouver “Stepans”, tweeting away chocolate cake propaganda, charts with no substance, and badly done on top of that!
    Glad that others, ahead of me, caught the obvious attempt to further diminish and dismiss the efforts put together by these small CC societies. How despicable!

    And how come, a Vision operative brings it up to the “public’s” attention when the word is, ahem, it’s all a Park Board problem, with no Party or City Hall involvement what-so-ever.

    Going back to that chart.
    I have no choice but to back up Eric Harms #193, on this one.
    Really, Stepan? Don’t you think that staying in school and passing Math 6 would have been a better use of your time and resources, instead of becoming another dozen a dime political activist?

    Andrew Browne… #185 #191
    “He shoots, he misses!”
    Liked your attempt at spin, sorry it blew in your face!
    But hey, put aside the obvious mathematical errors, why is the city so keen to go after 1-2% of that bucket-full, when according to Ballem it only amounts to a mere “drop in a bucket”, eh?
    Try again next time.

    Waltyss #189
    LOL!
    Perhaps Michelle in #188 may have refereed to that pie chart as “cheese graph” because it stinks. We’ll have to ask her.
    You never fail to amuse me.
    “In any kind of graph or number crunching, percentages will commonly not add up to 100% usually because of rounding. Hardly an error.”‘

    Here’s an example:
    http://www.mathsisfun.com/data/pie-charts.html

    Do not mistake the “Billing” classes they teach in Law School with… “Math”. Not the same.
    Everybody knows that in their textbooks an hour has 50 min, and a working day has 27 hours, sooo… 🙂

    Till next billing cycle…

    We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.

  • waltyss

    @Eric Harms #193. The point being made (and I would like to hear your response) is that the PB provides the vast majority of the capital and provides it free of charge to the community centre societies to operate and put on programems. Being as that is so, what is wrong with the PB taking some of that income to redistribute to those centres who are unable to bring in the same type of income and hence mount the same kinds of programmes?

  • waltyss

    Ah, Glissy, since I so amuse you: I guess you must have been spending too much time sneaking out of the old math class for a few tokes of the old h. If you round 98.4% and 2.6% to whole integers, you get 98% + 3%. An error?
    Oh well, when actually in class and not comatose, you were more focussed on Stalin and the gulag.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    The pie chart link up above from Vision Vancouver Executive Director Stepan Vdovine above exemplifies “Contributions to Major Facility Renewal”. I’m not certain how that “Major Facility Renewal” amount is indicative of “trapped capital”, or that it represents funds “to operate and put on programmes”.

    It appears people are extrapolating meaning out of what isn’t being demonstrated on that chart and I’d suggest people be careful with how information is being parsed.

    I’m reminded of the casino rezoning at BC place with the election promise of no casino expansion while Vision Vancouver is in office – doesn’t mean the rezoning proposal for the new casino there with more floor space won’t go through, but it might just mean no additional slot machines and card tables etc. than what’s at Edgewater already, thus no “expansion”.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    To further underscore my point, some live tweets from Emily Jackson (metronews.ca) at the park board meeting tonight are pointing to inaccuracies in the park board’s report:

    https://twitter.com/theemilyjackson

    “West End community association president says that they DO accept the low income access card, contrary to @parkboard report. #vanpoli”

    “Renfrew parks association notes that they spend $627K on capital improvements, but @ParkBoard presentations says it contributed $50K”

    I think trust is in order to bring the public and parties on board – and to engender trust, facts need to be presented, not misleading representations.

  • jenables

    has everyone forgotten where ALL of the money comes from? ” the PB provides the vast majority of the capital and provides it free of charge to the community centre societies to operate and put on programems.” actually, the people and businesses provide the vast majority of capital regardless of what level of government it comes from. I’m begging you not to forget that the city and parks board work for the people, not the other way around. the less people that are able to control that capital, increases the risk of it being misused. absolute power corrupts absolutely, so why risk it? last time I checked we had more pressing problems to address, so why are they focusing their energies here?

  • Morven

    Jenables 199

    “the city and parks board work for the people”

    Do they?

    You seem to suggest we should be deferential to the city and it’s officials which neatly summarises the CC conflict
    -30-