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Coming to Vancouver downtown: More noise, more efforts to control noise

November 24th, 2010 · 20 Comments

Vancouver’s plan to put 7,000 people in close proximity to two stadiums, an outdoor civic plaza and (potentially) a casino is unique in North America. Not surprisingly, it’s raising questions about how to deal with some of the inevitable conflicts, noise being one of them.

The city, trying to minimize the likelihood of any lawsuits from future residents who say that government had a duty to protect them from excessive noise, was looking at just having new condo owners sign agreements that spelled out they were moving into a noisy area. Apparently the law department was concerned that wasn’t going to be enough.

So now there are additional measures. The city is going to ask developers in the area to come up with different construction techniques to minimize noise. At this point, a “guideline,” not a requirement, but developers going to the development-permit board will have to explain what they’ve been able to do. As well, there is going to be an effort to work with event organizers to see what can be done about minimizing sound. Good luck there.

And what no one can do much about is the fact that BC Place will now have an openable roof that, yes, will be open for many events. Which means noise will travel even further.

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  • Peter

    If it’s Concord Pacific building these adjacent condos, which I believe it is — good luck. The walls in my 1-yr-old Concord condo are paper thin – the cheapest, least insulation used possible.. you can hear absolutely EVERYTHING.

  • Tiktaalik

    I’d be nice if condo owners learned to deal with the fact that they live in a bustling, busy city.

    In the past however we’ve seen condo developments next to venue spaces simply result in the venue’s closure. Of course the places that get closed down are mom n’ pop operations, not large, powerful, entrenched businesses like Rogers arena here.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    You know, Frances, for a while my family and I were “camped out” in White Rock two streets, two building lots, and one parking lot away from the BNR-SF railway…

    Now, I recall crafting the sentence that “the train noise is half as much four times as far away”, explaining that noise is an inverse function of the square of the distance. However, I cannot remember if the readers of the Peace Arch News editorial page were ever regaled with that minutia.

    The history of Vancouver, and the Lower Mainland, is the history of living in close proximity to noise—CPR noise to be specific.

    In one colourful case, the original Royal Bank building in Port Moody is a wood frame structure with a residential apartment on the second floor—the bank manager’s suite. A local resident, with well established credentials, once confided his belief that early Port Moody bank managers had large families in part due to “noise” interruptions caused by trains rolling through on the CPR mainland in the middle of the night.

    I would estimate the distance from the CPR mainland and the historic Royal Bank building on Clarke & Queen streets, Port Moody, at about 100-feet.

    This issue of noise in our midst has a more local, and more recent, concern. When the Bread Garden opened with an outdoor sidewalk space—VERY Parisian—at York and Cypress, I experienced for the first time this issue of public realm noise and residential privacy. The patio would close at 9 or 10 p.m. to “soothe the natives” living above.

    However, this hardly seemed like “good” urbanism to me. Had the units been dual-orientation, the folks offended by the noise on the York side of their units (the parlour if properly designed), would have retired to their quiet quarters facing the lane. Of course, the quality of urban design on the lane would play a large role in this equation, but that’s exactly the point I am driving.

    Move on to the tower and podia—where podium units are not dual-aspect (they front either on the street or on the lane), and tower units are up high in the air, but not high enough to make the noise-level-equals-the-square-of-the-distance equation work. Here we have a prime exhibit of why the hyper-urbanism brings big-league problems to bear on our small town.

    Solution? It’s in the building wall, of course. Triple glaze it, and make it hermetically sealed to noise. Feed air, heat and cooling via mechanical systems…

    … oh, did we forget about the sustainability thing?

    Tower-and-podia deliver high densities alright. However, they fail to deliver livable quartiers or neighbourhoods. Better corral them in a tight zone then, such as our downtown peninsula.

    Then leave the legal eagles to have at building design.

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    CORRECTION: CPR mainland should read “CPR main trunk”.

  • ThinkOutsideABox

    “Better corral them in a tight zone then, such as our downtown peninsula.”

    That’s an understatement. Looking at what is being proposed along with what’s been rezoned, for the Ticketmaster, Downtown Toyota and Commercial Electronics sites, there will be more residential units shoe-horned into a span of a block and a half from the other side of Burrard to Hornby along Drake, than what was built for the Millenium Water/Olympic Village in its entirety.

    That’s also not factoring just to the east, the inevitable Cressey development where now sits a patch of grass and a parkbench for tax avoidance, the Rolston, and the behemoths expected to replace the Granville loops.

  • Jean

    Love to know what type of stadium events /circumstances which the stadium owners/management would open up the retractable roof.

  • Joe Just Joe

    I agree with Lewis, triple glazed sealed units do miracles. Looks at the YVR Fairmont, it’s almost eerie watching the planes so close but being unable to hear them.

  • gmgw

    It’s been common knowledge for more than a year that anyone purchasing a condo in one of the multitude of new towers to be erected around BC Place will be required to sign an undertaking foregoing their right to take any legal action regarding possible noise pollution during events taking place in the stadium.

    I guess there are people who’d love to spend an evening sitting on their balcony being serenaded by U2 as they play a couple of hundred yards away. I’m not one of them. Besides, the last time U2 played there, I was able to hear them quite clearly in my living room, three-quarters of a mile away. And that was with the closed roof, mind you. Party down!
    gmgw

  • Charlie NoSong

    I’m with you @Tiktaalik.

    It would be nice if most residents in Vancouver realized that they live in a city, thus, thankfully many wonderful events/festivals/music venues will be a part of it, bringing noise with them. I was talking to a friend from mexico and she finds it absolutely hilarious how people are so adverse to noise in this city. It’s gotten to the point where property owners using this noise policy are able to shut venues and cultural stuff happening in their own neighbourhoods. I feel the city is forced to bends over backwards to keep things quiet rather than interesting/vibrant….

  • Lewis N. Villegas

    I should qualify that in “our downtown peninsula” I see four neighbourhoods or quartiers, west of Burrard and centered on the Davie-Denman-Robson horse shoe, that are well established, and should evolve with open & transparent consultation of the people there.

    I don’t think they hear U2 concerts, but I do know that residents regularly walk to see NHL and CFL games.

  • Tessa

    Why don’t we get condo owners everywhere in the city to sign a deal saying they’re not allowed to complain about venues or establishments that existed prior to them purchasing their condo, at all. The moment they send anything official to city hall they lose the title of their house and it’s converted to affordable housing for people who can’t afford the luxury of having a fancy condo – even one next to, for example, the Colbalt.

  • Gassy Jack’s Ghost

    I’m glad Lewis brought up train noise. Living next to the shunting yard in Gastown, I’ve always wondered why the trains are allowed to carry on 24 hours a day, when it is so obviously against the City noise bylaws? Back in the 90s, we were one of the few residential buildings facing the tracks, but since then, many more buildings along Water and Alexander have been converted from office/light industrial to residential. Add to that the great puffs of diesel smoke, and West Coast Express, and you have a toxic, excessively noisy neighbour right next to a growing residential community.

    I’m not complaining here – one gets used to the trains, just like everything else in this part of town – but I am curious if anyone knows if there is a special deal/understanding between the City and the railway that allows them to shunt trains 24/7 when it is so obviously against the residential noise bylaw?

    I should note that one can call the railyard directly if there’s an issue, and they are always very good about dealing with it quickly, often within minutes.

    So again, not complaining, just curious if anyone knows the answer to this? As far as I know, there’s no legal noise covenant required if you buy a place next to the railyard, so why would the City legal department not seem to care here, but be prepared to bend over backwards for prospective residents in False Creek?

  • Otis Krayola

    @GJ’sG #12,

    Regarding train noise on the waterfront, what the residents of the Burrardview neighbourhood (western Wall St. and north of McGill to Renfrew) have been told is that city noise bylaws do not have jurisdiction when the source of the noise is the Port of Vancouver. That means all sources, including railroad operations.

    The port is a federal authority; it need not comply with city bylaws.

  • Joe Just Joe

    The land the ports operate on is governed under federal powers and not by the City of Vancouver. They do volunterily follow a good neighbours policy but are under no legal obiligation to do so. I agree that the Ports have always been quick to react to public concerns, sometimes there is just little that can be done.
    Won’t affect Gastown but there is a major project in the process consisting of a new overpass just east of the Knight st overpass to allow Port vehicle traffic to keep moving while trains conduct movements.

  • Joe Just Joe

    Seems my slow fingers have acted again.

  • Deacon Blue

    There are two shoes to fall in Vancouver brown field redevelopment: the Port Lands and the False Creek Flats (Main to Clarke; Prior Street to Great Northern Way). Both sites are railway “involved”. The Port Lands have the waterfront views.

    As Delta Port develops, and Vancouver port fades, it will be interesting to see where the balance falls between railway operations in these two sites, and the desire to redevelop at top margin

  • simoniz

    Aren’t there already a gazillion condos next to both arenas? Why don’t you ask them what they think about the noise?

  • Gassy Jack’s Ghost

    Thanks for the info, guys.

    Deacon, my preference for the port railyard development would be like Portland’s Pearl District, which very successfully reclaimed an abandoned railyard/warehouse area there. It would be a good way to integrate the streets and scale of Gastown into the waterfront lands and still get a very high density maximizing unit numbers. But my guess is we will instead end up with the usual tower and podium yawners that Vancouver is being over run by.

  • Modern

    Tiktaalik and Mr. NoSong have it right exactly.

    A minority of no-fun whiners seem to be able to shut down anything interesting, vibrant or cultural happening; the same person seems to be able to send dozens of complaints and the CoV typically will pander to them and send out their bylaw officers.

    This is why essentially starting up a live-music venue is not possible in Vancouver. This is very unfortunate for the prospects of creating a truly vibrant, diverse and exciting place to live.

    Please answer this: why would you move downtown anywhere if you are sensitive to music, noise and nightlife in general?

    There are 1000’s of square kilometers in this province you can move to if you want silence.

  • jaymac

    What a waste of City resources? If they really are “Planners” shouldn’t they have thought about this a long time ago?

    I guess with all the new bicycles downtown the riders will have to put their bells in silent mode after 8.00 pm.