A recently tender on the city website is advertising for an architect/landscape architect team to pre-qualify for work on a re-design of the north plaza, to be done soon because of urgent need for re-waterproofing between the surface and the Vancouver Art Gallery vaults below.
Not a moment too soon, many will say. At the moment, the north plaza is covered with wood chips, which make it look like an unused horse-jumping ring.
The goal? To quote: ” The goal of the City is to create a plaza that reflects the needs and desires of the
public, respects its location at the historical entry to the Vancouver Art Gallery
building and its relationship to Robson Square. The urgency for the work is due to the
immediate need to excavate the NE portion of the plaza and renew the waterproofing
around the underground vaults of the Vancouver Art Gallery.”
This is not connected, by the way, to the activities the city is carrying on re the south side of the gallery or Robson Square, about whether it should stay closed and, if so, what should go in there.
You can read more here if you wish.
55 responses so far ↓
1 jolson // Nov 2, 2012 at 5:09 pm
Architects only need apply, all others including artists get lost as you don’t know what great public space is all about, only we the procurement folks understand these things, it’s all about leaking basements don’t you know. No occupiers with bright ideas. No ideas competition. No promises that any of you folks will be selected, we know banality when we see it, and we will make the decisions. Good luck and don’t forget that you will be signing a non-disclosure agreement should you be selected; you have zero chance of embarrassing us with an imaginative solution that we don’t like. Good luck again if you still want to try, we know you will, we have the carrot. Oh hey, that’s it, a field of giant carrots.
2 Westender1 // Nov 2, 2012 at 5:29 pm
The City has requested public input for both the north and south sides of the Art Gallery property through this survey:
http://fluidsurveys.com/s/Block51/
The choices as presented in the survey appear to be:
1.) frolick with a food truck with the 800 Block Robson closed to traffic year round; or
2.) frolick with a food truck with the 800 Block Robson closed to traffic during the summer.
The option of a “thin street” for the 800 Block Robson Street with the addition of two $2-million “affordable housing” duplexes doesn’t seem to be an option presented in the survey.
3 Voony // Nov 2, 2012 at 5:41 pm
When asked on the awful north plaza , the city explain, it is a Provincial responsibility, ah!
So what the point for the city to do this RFEIO and pseudo consultation (Westender1 has well resume it (*), if that is true?
If not, the city show a pretty much lack of ambition for the place, which probably should require an architecture competition…By the way the VPSN had an idea competition couple in 2009, and the Public choice was pleasing me enough.
On the survey Westender1 is linking, you have in fact 3 choice
A/ mysteriously rerouted bus 5
B/ secretly rerouted bus 5
C/ bus route 5 surprise
In those halloween period, People will prefer A.
PS: if you want to know more about this Mascarade:
http://voony.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/block-51-wheres-the-transit/
4 Anne // Nov 2, 2012 at 6:01 pm
The Block 51 consultation does come across as something to justify a “done deal”. When one trudges by the closed block in the pouring rain with nary a frolicking food truck customer (or even an open food truck) in sight it is hard not to be a little cynical.
And yes, the reassurances about transit in the survey are not reassuring.
There is an appearance of railroading. I don’t have strong feelings about the 800 block Robson closure but I feel very unhappy about the consultation approach.
5 Everyman // Nov 2, 2012 at 8:37 pm
Finally! How about some nice seating areas for office workers to take their lunch? How about a public washroom?
6 waltyss // Nov 3, 2012 at 11:13 am
Redevelopment of the North Plaza would be great. However, I am a bit confused. When early last summer I called the city to complain about the fountain not working and being full of swampy water, I was told that the fountain and as I understood the plaza was the responsibility of the Province. That was also what a call back from the VAG told me as well (They told me the fountain pump was broken but that’s another story). Now we have the City putting out an RPF to redevelop the plaza. What am I missing?
As for seating areas, I am of two minds. I love to sit in the plaza with the paper and something from one of the food trucks that encircle that block. However, I like to sit on the edge of the fountain to do so and like the open nature of the plaza.
7 Trish French // Nov 3, 2012 at 11:54 am
This plaza has needed attention for a long time, I think it can be agreed. It reached a nadir when the VAG underground vault went in and all the mature trees on that side of the plaza had to go. What was a formal symetrical space became a lopsided weirdness.
Some random thoughts:
1. The land is owned by the Province, but was leased to the City for 99 years so the VAG could use the building. BUT the bit that was not leased to CoV at the time was the fountain. This was because the Provincial Government (Socred govt at the time) knew that Arthur Erickson Architects (architect for the VAG renovation) and others would want to get rid of it. Since the had been a Wacky Bennett project, that was a no-no. (I worked for AEA on the programming for the VAG renovation at the time, and I saw the lease plan when I worked for the City, so this is not speculation.) More recently, the Province seemed to be willing to nuke the fountain. It did not appear in a plaza renovation design that was done by Clive Grout’s office for the Province prior to the Olympics, which didn’t go ahead. I’d like to know what the heritage Statement of Significance says about it.
2. At the time of the above mentioned pre-Olympic work, there was some consultation done about the plaza. I can’t remember if it was a real worthwhile effort, or just proforma. I recall that Cultural Affairs and Public Events staff at the time were keen to get a decent handle on what kind of groups/activities would like to use the plaza, and what their practical needs were, so that it could actually be programmed. The Public Events office had lots of records of past and current users. I hope some of that background is used.
3. It’s really unfortunate that we are going to have to spend $4.75 million (the amount noted in the 2012-2014 Capital Plan) on this now. When and if the VAG moves (which I think it should) the dumb underground vault could be removed. It’s the single biggest impediment to doing anything good with the plaza.
8 waltyss // Nov 3, 2012 at 1:03 pm
@Trish French. thanks for the explanation about the “Wacky” explanation about the fountain and who owns it.
Whether VAG stays there or not, why do the vaults have to be there?
9 publicspace // Nov 3, 2012 at 2:15 pm
The Vancouver Public Space Network held an ideas competition in 2008/2009 called “Where’s the Square?” to raise awareness about the need for a grand gathering space in Vancouver. Entries were received from around the world and the majority of the sites chosen for a plaza was the Robson Sq/North Plaza site. Have a look at the entries and note the “People’s Choice” award went to a North Plaza design – enjoy. http://vancouverpublicspace.ca/index.php?page=123
10 Anne // Nov 3, 2012 at 2:35 pm
Thanks Trish French for the very useful background informtion.
11 Voony // Nov 3, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Thanks Trish French for the context, the kind of context (who own what) the Block51 “public consultation” didn’t judge useful to provide.
To be sure John Atkins did a 6mn presentation on the North Plaza,. Unfortunatly, he didn’t go in this level of detail, but we clearly understood he doesn’t like the fountain
When asked on the bark mulch (or why the city find fund to put pillows or parasols in the middle of Robson street, and still is not able to put some grass on the North Square. the answer of the city is textually:
“The Province of BC must approve any changes the City proposes to make to the North Plaza and is responsible for the maintenance of the fountain and the area immediately around it. “
I for one, strongly suspect that the city is deliberately neglecting the North Plaza to push its agenda on the south one (empty the north to fill up the south!).
Now, Trish, your “though” need to be precised:
According to my archives:
The lease term of the block 51 has been negociated in 74-75 (lease started on Aug 29, 75), with a NDP government, and this pretty much on the own term of the city :
It is pretty much the city which has proposed to keep the fountain under provincial jurisdiction, Barret didn’t care less about it.
This was certainly a wishy-washing trick of the city to avoid the much worse outcome proposed by Erickson than the current fountain for the North Plaza.
Similarly, the south Plaza could not have existed as is (only a sunken one), without the City opposition to the original architect plan: He didn’t want at grade connection at all, but
at the time of the this deal, 74, it was agreed, between concerned parties, Province, City and architect, that “Robson street will be closed between Hoe and Hornby except for two transit lanes.
When touching historic aspect of the place, the presentation done by the city, and other parties, on the blocks 51-61-71, you can feel pretty significant history revisionism at play (…on many aspects, the Robson bus being one among other…)
PS: My understanding of the story of this place could be not complete and accurate: I was not there at the time, so everything I say is based on source, like city council minutes. That said, if you find my account inaccurate, I will be
glad to correct it:
http://voony.wordpress.com/2012/10/26/block-51-the-north-plaza/
12 Terry M // Nov 3, 2012 at 6:20 pm
“3. It’s really unfortunate that we are going to have to spend $4.75 million (the amount noted in the 2012-2014 Capital Plan) on this now. When and if the VAG moves”
Money, money, money… Spending for the next Occupy Movement affair, eh, city hall.?
Good comment Trish!
13 Roger Kemble // Nov 4, 2012 at 3:23 am
Voony,
You really shouldn’t post doctored photos, photo-shopped to support your shaky assumptions. It colours all your other stuff, some of which may be worth a look.
Your obsession with shiny trinkets belies a more mature approach to city watching.
Oh and BTW whisper to Madame Roczkowskyj that there is a better way to get her brood to its medical attention: east along Robson to Burrard, turn right, and a few blocks up the road is Saint Paul’s and all the medical attention they need after a hard days waiting.
There’s no need to venture across Robson at VAG even if its still open!
Now get a good night’s sleep and try looking at the town thru the other end of the telescope!
14 Roger Kemble // Nov 4, 2012 at 4:17 am
Oh and BTW Voony after your ineptly doctored photo shop photo of Exhibition street you have dropped precipitously in my opinion of your screed.
I can only conclude you must be lonely and desperate for attention to post such nonsense.
15 Roger Kemble // Nov 4, 2012 at 4:49 am
Oh and just one other thing Voony I suggest you acquaint Madame Roczkowskyj with Handydart.
Handydart is a very convenient on call surface TX service especially designed for OAP’s.
Madame R need only schedule 24 hours head for her brood to be shepherded to where ever they wish even if Robson @ 51 is closed.
I hope the VAG block, total north and south, is redesigned into a dignified ceremonial centre: a cultural focus that the city so sadly lacks . . .
16 boohoo // Nov 4, 2012 at 8:47 am
“I can only conclude you must be lonely and desperate for attention to post such nonsense.”
Says the guy who whores his own website on every blog known to man?
I don’t really care about this topic particularly, but let’s stay on it–there’s been some good context discussed.
17 Roger Kemble // Nov 4, 2012 at 9:04 am
Oh right boohoo @ #51 your the guy that uses a micrometer to measure sea level rise after ten years.
Yes, this . . .
http://members.shaw.ca/theyorkshirelad72/working.mount.pleasant.html
. . . is the link in question.
And if you weren’t boot legging your DFO time on my tax dime you may have noticed that it’s not my website.
It is a very relevant example of figure ground integration of buildings and public place at ground level: indeed, very relevant to VAG’s precinct.
Thanqxz for reminding me.
And remember no blogging on my tax dime or I’ll tell your boss . . .
18 rmac // Nov 4, 2012 at 11:25 am
R. Kemble
I can only hope you’re attempting humour when suggesting one can just “call up the Handydart”. As someone who has had arrange for said transportation it is quite a set of hurdles to jump. One must qualify (doctors’ notes and such) and pick-ups can only be arranged at set times, with a proscribed lead time. It is not an answer for everyone.
19 Roger Kemble // Nov 4, 2012 at 11:32 am
what’s your problem rmac @ #17?
Kathy Roczkowskyj on the Stephen’ress blog says, “A number of organizations (BC Coalition of Disabled People, West End Seniors Network, etc.)” are effected.
Requirements must be pretty open, I’ve got a pass!
20 boohoo // Nov 4, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Oh Roger, it must be so difficult being you.
Not your website? The one with your name on the bottom of it (with the inane music and horrible colours )? Ok….sure….
21 Roger Kemble // Nov 4, 2012 at 3:01 pm
Oh boo it’s been great way to spend a rainy Sunday.
Yup, sometimes it’s difficult but most times it fun . . . how about you?
22 Richard // Nov 4, 2012 at 7:44 pm
The downtown bus routes are a tangled mess with many of the routes turning often and traveling down many streets.
http://infomaps.translink.ca/System_Maps/84/CC_Sept12.pdf
While some of these routes might have made sense 30 years ago, with new rapid transit lines and new development in areas of downtown, the whole system really needs a rethink regardless of whether Robson Square is ped only or not. Georgia and Nelson (Smithe) as through routes are obvious choices as is Pacific.
With some good planning, it should be possible to have pedestrian streets as well as great transit service. Hundreds of cities around the world have been able to do this so we can as well.
23 F.H.Leghorn // Nov 4, 2012 at 8:54 pm
Speaking, I say, speaking on behalf of birds everywhere I call on the design committee to include that without which no over-priced, wind-blown,rain-soaked paved area is complete, to wit : giant fiberglass sparrows.
24 Adele Chow // Nov 5, 2012 at 12:12 am
Just do something to spruce it up! It was actually due for renovation before the Olympics left us with the bark mulch. The fountain is not especially impressive, so it could go and be replaced with something that goes with the architecture. Grass would be nice but may not be feasible considering the fact that the plaza always gets trampled over by protesters and events. My suggestion would be to include a number of raised gardens with retaining walls that would keep foot traffic to defined walkways. (The lawn always had a dirt path running diagonally through it.) Nicely paved areas for walking and gathering would be advisable, as well as attractive furniture, lighting, and planters. I don’t think this project needs to be a huge deal. Just get on with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
25 Voony // Nov 5, 2012 at 1:04 am
Roger, you shouldn’t post after having smoked too much of the Nanaimo Pub’s carpet:
Like Anne or Westender1, I am very unhappy with the public consultation. Now, I give the reason for this: that is on the link.
If you are OK with a government consulting public on its freeway plans in the manner below:
• the truck lobby organize the consultations, for which you need to buy a ticket, at ticketmaster or the like, to have the right to attend them.
• it completes that by a poll posted on CKNW asking you what color you prefer for the lampposts along the proposed freeways, to claim overwhelming support for the plan.
Like Roger, you will find my arguments “nonsense”. Otherwise, you will have to admit that the city make a mockery of the public consultation process.
Trish French said that the Fountain kept under provincial jurisdiction is a “plot” of the Socred. What is the credential of a pseudo anonymous cat on Internet to question this version?
Comment section is not really a place to elaborate on this, so I gave a link I have the “arrogance” to think it give the best history account on block51 you can find on the net (unless proved otherwise).
When someone provides fact going against Roger’s belief, he will call them conspiracies:
At the “public consultation”, “Matthew Blackett from Spacing Magazine [gave] an overview of innovative public spaces from other cities to be used as inspiration” (as reads the CoV website)
Innovative spaces to be used as inspiration included Exhibition Road in London.
It happens that buses, cyclists and pedestrians all share the public space there.
Like apparently many, Roger doesn’t believe it. You can provide all sort of link/source to show him it is, he will call them conspiracies of any sort.
Me, I ask, why the city doesn’t show these “innovative space” like they effectively are, and prefer to maintain Roger and other in their ignorance of the “real world”:
Sadly enough, rmac, Roger is serious, and its opinion on the Handydart solution seems shared by many in the said “public consultation”.
In fact Matt didn’t present a single “great space” not directly serviced by Public transit, and the greatest in his opinion has transit right in the middle of it! Why can’t it be done here?
BTW, You can read more about that event here:
http://voony.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/block-51-oct-15-and-17th-events-a-summary/
Richard, you are certainly right, but then why add insult to injury by gratuitously imposing additional burden on rider of the bus 5, like the city is doing right now?
26 Roger Kemble // Nov 5, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Voony @ #25
I checked: bus 360 does traverse New Exhibition Road, London UK with one stop.
For calling you a liar I apologies.
As you know I disagree diametrically with your “shiny trinket” obsession. A city is a cultural organism: far more complicated that moving a few baubles ad minions on a track.
Fortunately London and your Paris matured well before techno-besotted meddlers could interfere.
And I do not appreciate interference from your less than elocutionary acolytes. Gaining abusive brownie points does nothing to further the conversation. They diminish you . . .
27 Andrew Browne // Nov 5, 2012 at 3:27 pm
The loss of the #5 connectivity between the West End and Yaletown/East Downtown has been really terrible. I’m not a fan of closing that portion of Robson to all traffic – that bus link is vital and connects downtown’s two residential communities with the CBD between them. A quick bus trip can’t be replaced by a 40 minute walk without severing some ties of community.
28 Lewis N. Villegas // Nov 5, 2012 at 4:03 pm
The three blocks from the Bay to the Vancouver Hotel are the choice blocks in this part of the city. This is the crest of the hill at the heart of the CPR land grant.
(1) We are very lucky to have an open space there.
I have two fond memories of this place. One was a First Night celebration on 31 december with Georgia closed to traffic. The curbs were a hidden tripping hazard as the entire area was covered by a throng of people, and you couldn’t really see where you were walking.
The second was sitting on a sidewalk cafe on Robson, about where the Starbucks is now beside Chapters and across from the Old Eaton’s. Must have been a quiet night, because the ‘sense of place’ looking across Howe towards the steps that lead up to the Courthouse/Art Gallery cafe was strong enough to make the hair stand on the back of my neck. You can’t get that when the streets are run over with cars.
(2) We have strong urban spaces to work with in this area.
I agree with Richard, and others, it is time to use the transit lines to rationalize our bus and trolley service into a grid of routes.
However, as far as creating great urban spaces… I wonder if we have the jam. It takes more than a good site and good transportation. It takes paying close attention to urban planning for generations.
The site is now surrounded by towers on every side except on the Courthouse side. It will not see sun in the summer until 1 p.m.
As Arthur Erickson proved twice, once here on the other side of the Courthouse, and once at SFU, stairs that fill with people on sunny days tend to face west (SFU) or south-west (here, but on the other side of the square).
The sunniest corner of the square is up against Georgia Street. The volume of traffic on Georgia is problematic. As is the inability to connect to buildings on three sides of this square.
(3) Solar aspect for this site is problematic at best.
Finally, we have to consider uses. Great open spaces move right up to their buildings, and are not surrounded by streets like we have here, or on countless plazas dating to the Leyes de las Indias.
The large footprint of the corporate towers work against us. They prove to be killers for the bustle of the urban street. It is a fact seldom recognized even on the streets of delirious NY.
So, although it would be possible to close Howe for a block or half a block along the square, it would link the square to the ass-end of the TD Tower, its garage ramp, and the back-side of the Old Eatons. As was my observation on a summer night some time ago, the city really doesn’t come back to life until we are a full block from Georgia at Robson.
The new Nordstroms will turn its back on this site as much as the old tenants did.
(4) It’s not just the square, it’s also the places that surround it on the perimeter that are important.
In the final analysis, if you want a good square, then you have to have good urbanism.
29 jolson // Nov 5, 2012 at 4:30 pm
The facts are that the building has been occupied by art patrons of some sort who promptly boarded up the main entrance on the north side many years ago and thus orphaned the public square. It is no wonder that the homeless on occasion have moved into this lost place in the very heart of the City. Today pitched intellectual battles rage in the lost space on the south side of the building where the hedonists conspire to lay about on their baggies. It is on the north side we are told that in the vaults deep underground the art is getting all wet. We could not find a better reflection of contemporary society then in the mysterious workings of the VAG and its environs.
The building and the surrounding squares are of course all of one tapestry, so we must lament a spectacular failure on the part of MODERN ART and MODERNIST ARCITECTURE to deliver on the promise to fulfill our lives. Art lying in the wet soggy dark does not enrich our lives. Public buildings barricaded against the public squares that they occupy do not enrich the urban life of citizens, no matter what they contain with-in.
30 Andrew Browne // Nov 5, 2012 at 4:58 pm
I remember visiting museums in New York and London and being aghast at their use of the historic, original, and grand entrances to their buildings. What fools! Don’t they know you have to build an ugly annex entrance from a minor side street? The Robson and Georgia facing VAG entrances were urgently needed for pigeon storage.
31 ThinkOutsideABox // Nov 5, 2012 at 5:24 pm
Agreed, the West End has been inconvenienced by the loss of route 5 connectivity along a disconnected Robson St.
32 Voony // Nov 5, 2012 at 9:51 pm
Transit go thru Exhibition road like it goes thru countless pedestrian European spaces (see example in http://voony.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/transit-as-part-of-the-urban-fabric/ ), those praised by Richard and many other…This, because European are not willing to screw up transit like CoV does.
And the reason why? You just have to read what Erickson had to say on the Robson bus in 1974:
“The only traffic through the square will be inner city buses [...]. Since buses function as people movers, they are seen as a compliment or enhancement to the pedestrian activity of the civic square, whereas the present car traffic would present and irreconcilable conflict.”
33 Roger Kemble // Nov 6, 2012 at 4:59 am
“Don’t they know you have to build an ugly annex entrance from a minor side street?” And what pray, Andrew @ #30 would have been your solution?
Talk is cheap!
This constant whining over what they do in Europe is nauseating: a different history, a different politic, a different economy, a different place, a different time!
I was a trustee of VAG at the time. I persuaded my colleagues to accept Arthur’s entrance proposal: Arthur was not present!
To enter from the north would have essentially obliterated Rattenbury’s treasure: the ceremonial steps would go, circulation within would have been torturous, the exterior plaza would have been exposed, undefined . . worse.
At least there is an element of seclusion on the south side that would not be to the north!
The unfortunate bland judicial megalith to the south is an insensitive brute force that over shadows much of the downtown: but it is not alone by any means!
It is unfortunate that Arthur chose not to integrate VAG Robson entrance with the Court House and for that reason IMO the whole of block 51 should be up for scrutiny.
Just because London allows buses (Vancouver’s OAP’s have plenty of access: i.e. Handydart) on an imperial street doesn’t mean we should follow blindly.
If the gossip here is any indiction of local insensitivity toward urban place, or lack thereof, then I see nothing enlightening coming from this conversation.
So far the proposed Nordstom thingie is enough to shatter our faith that local talent will rise to the occasion . . .
34 Roger Kemble // Nov 6, 2012 at 5:27 am
Unfortunately, Lewis @ #28, Phillip ll’s “El Leyes de las Indias.” was for a different place, a different time, indeed a totally different people . . .
35 roger Kemble // Nov 6, 2012 at 6:26 am
PS
Robert Savery!
Robert was the designated draughtsmans/artist delegated to design the fountain on Court House Square, Vancouver.
He and I had drawing boards close together in the Provincial Architect’s office: that would be around 1956/7.
Robert was a peculiar guy and I thinq it was his peculiarities that got him delegated to the job.
He was ram-rod militarist unapproachable.
No one in the office really knew what he was up to re the fountain. We would pry but he put on his sergeant-major opacity and responded with a gruff look.
He strutted around the office as though he owned the place, as indeed he did, being premier Bennett’s confidant on anything fountain.
He was absolutely the wrong man for the job.
The fountain is an embarrassment: it must go!
36 rico // Nov 6, 2012 at 7:15 am
Rodger, I was trying to remember…..when was the last time you said something positive that was not about you?
37 roger Kemble // Nov 6, 2012 at 8:52 am
Good morning Rico
Why, now we have the trinketeers griping about over capacity of Canada Line . . .
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/oakridge-mall-reimagined-as-a-real-city-all-its-own/article4912826/
Frances has done a good job of exposing the issues: too many riders going to Richmond when the trinketeers want all the seats.
Now what is the problem? Is it a badly designed system? Is it premature over capacity?
I would suggest it is neither. Rather it is our unrealistic expectations.
Instead of designing a system to move everyone from point A to Point B, which is obviously not working, a more realistic approach would be to design a more integrated system of living/work/recreation/education proximity: bring point A and point B into that integrated configuration: i.e. closer together, more manageable.
Unless we do that your beloved climate catastrophe is a certainty . . .
PS . . . as H. L. Menken said, “you can say what you like about me but spell my name correctly” . . Roger . .. without the d please Rico.
38 Rico // Nov 6, 2012 at 9:44 am
Roger, sorry about misspelling your name. I am curious about your last comment, apart from one question in the comment section there was no questioning of the Canada Line, the article was about the proposed Oakridge Mall redevelopment and how it is a good place for additional density because it is along rapid transit. Something that seems like a reasonable proposal to me considering its location. It also seems like a reasonable retrofiting of the mall from the plans I have seen (including a step towards … ‘a more realistic approach would be to design a more integrated system of living/work/recreation/education proximity: bring point A and point B into that integrated configuration: i.e. closer together, more manageable’)…but I seem to be veering off topic….
39 F.H.Leghorn // Nov 6, 2012 at 10:34 am
It is a curious fact of modern life that, while the giant plastic sparrows stand mute, the arbiters of taste tweet endlessly or squawk like Roger.
40 roger Kemble // Nov 6, 2012 at 10:54 am
Leghorn @ #39
Chick-a-dees . . .
41 Joe Just Joe // Nov 6, 2012 at 11:04 am
Since this thread has gone off topic…
F.H. Leghorn, I noticed the new Orpheum sign went up this weekend, the sign is covered in bird spikes. How do you feel about the lack of respect your avian friends are receiving?
42 MB // Nov 6, 2012 at 1:16 pm
In an attempt to bring this exchange back on topic, I’d like second those who believe the north open space to VAG is an exceptionally important piece of open space that has sadly not realized even a modicum of its potential.
I’m not sure where the edges of the underground vaults are located, but at least they’re well enough back from the two Georgia St corners to preserve the magnolias. Larger growing trees could be planted in areas — if they exist — where the subsurface gap parallel to the vault walls and sidewalks would accomodate a root zone.
Planters on the slab are feasible if they are done right, and that would include an excellent engineered membrane. Raised planters could also provide relief from a hardscape with small trees and a plethora of high quality understorey shrubs, annuals and perennials, and as podiums for outdoor sculpture.
This highly urban space is too important to assume the attitude that investment into anything not a building is a waste of public resources. This is why we have “plazas” that are little more than giant ashtrays for the few remaining smokers, space left over once an architect is done with the buildings.
This unfortunate urban design demeanour has been too prevalent and has resulted in a single-layer design responce throughout downtown.
I believe that the VAG north plaza, as the city’s premier outdoor gathering place, deserves a better treatment with first, an attitude that it is deserving of a generous budget as a stand-alone project, to use appropriate high quality local natural materials (no strip mall cheap unit pavers or culvert planters please), and to refer to our unique region, be it with native motifs, dramatic West Coast landscapes or industry.
Susan Point is an accomplished aboriginal artist, and her son, Thomas Cannell is up and coming. Both are experienced in stonework. Considering that quality stone work would be completely apropos in this space, consider one or two of Point’s finely crafted works on a plaza, such as …
http://www.insidevancouver.ca/2009/09/13/inside-the-expanded-vancouver-convention-centre/
… or some of Cannell’s massive carved basalt stones, such as those on the terrace at Burnaby’s Shadbolt Centre (Google it).
It’s been proposed before, but if the old moulds are still around, then why not commission a third Spirit of Haida Gwaii or Jade Canoe bronze sculpture set in a large still pool where the current fountain rests, or perhaps offset on the centre axis closer to Georgia Street with its own smaller plaza adjuct to a larger, unbroken people gathering place?
There are other fantastic non-aboriginal artists here, but seriously, if you want originality in the face of international Vegas Dubai tourist kitsch, then what is more original and says “West Coast” better than Coast Salish art?
Just saying that decent cities have decent, meaningful, enriching outdoor spaces. Our failure to create them so far says a lot about our inferiority complex.
Sometimes one just has to promote optimism in urban design, even in the pessimistic 21st Century.
43 Joe Just Joe // Nov 6, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Was it not just last year we were talking about building a concert hall under the north plaza once the vaults moved with the VAG? So I take it that concept is now dead or will we be spending money on upgrading the north plaza only to redo it a few years latter? Surely that could not be the case…
44 Roger Kemble // Nov 6, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Nicely said MB
45 jolson // Nov 6, 2012 at 2:20 pm
Roger @ 33
Rattenbury designed a magnificent building, created an image of justice for all in an age when people believed in fairness, the rule of law. All the architectural elements of Rattenbury’s design, square, stairs, front doors, façade are a narrative of hope. Should we forget our roots? Should access to the Art now housed there be any less hopeful?
To barricade the doors of this building has never been acceptable. There is no defence for such acts. People have died in the north plaza outside those closed doors seeking justice, housing justice no less, ironically another design responsibility of architects.
46 MB // Nov 6, 2012 at 3:24 pm
@ JJJ 43
Yes, the issue of VAGs permanent and hopefully final location needs resolution.
The concert hall idea was promoted by Bing Thom, a former critic of relocating VAG, but he revised his position once he worked out the acoustical requirements with an expert from Japan, and discovered that the space under the open area would work well. I’m not sure, but I believe that an entirely new and much deeper excavation was required (30 metres?) than that provided in the space currently in the vault area.
I suggest that moving VAG to a new facility wasn’t the heart-ripping cultural assault on the city he initially portrayed it to be, but that placing any excellent quality cultural amenity in the Rattenbury building and underground is the best use for the site, be it a concert hall or the Vancouver Museum.
Relocating VAG has generated many, many comments here and elsewhere. The only difference now is that the post office building/location has been removed from the list of potential sites. Larwill Park remains, but in the absence of any interest whatsoever in culture from the current federal government beyond bastardizing Beatles tunes into Muzak, or dancing with Sissy and Bobby on Lawrence Welk reruns (some snarling backbenchers are remoured to be into UFC soundcasts), and a faltering private fundraising campaign, I don’t hold out any hope for the foreseable future.
Until Christy Clark or Adrian Dix define what they will do with the $50 million Gordon Campbell promised to a new VAG, the mud pit stays.
47 Frank Ducote // Nov 7, 2012 at 7:26 am
A relevant example of a north-facing neoclassical museum being reconfigured in a contemporary way for universal access as well as recreating a wonderful and suitable forecourt – or plaza, if you prefer – is the Brooklyn Museum. An image can be seen at museums.findthebest.com/brooklynmuseum.
I believe James Polshek was the architect for this major renovation a few years ago.
48 Westender1 // Nov 7, 2012 at 9:17 am
Very suspicious that there is no bark mulch in evidence:
http://museums.findthebest.com/l/296/Brooklyn-Museum
…but looks like a great precedent for Vancouver’s own challenge at the art gallery.
49 Frank Ducote // Nov 7, 2012 at 9:42 am
@Westender – thanks for providing the correct link. I can attest that this retrofit really does work as a suitably grand entrance at grade, despite the loss of the original grand stairs.
50 Glissando Remmy // Nov 7, 2012 at 1:10 pm
Thought of The Day
“All it’s needed is a bit of sun… in the sky, all right, all right…”
Yup.
Good comments all around. Great ideas, but… why?
It is as clear as Vision Vancouver’s agenda on subsidizing BIXI , that the North Plaza it’s not appealing to the masses. That’s why they tend to soak in the sun on the South side of VAG!
Some said that the South Plaza was a favorite with demonstrators, and a starting point for many marches throughout the city. True. But that’s because traffic was going through at the time, and you know, more chaos one creates, more widespread media attention one gains.
No longer valid if the situation on Block 51 stays the way it is right now, which is… blocked.
Par example, let’s say, one hyper guy from “Because I Am A Girl” LOL, jumps at you as you walk by, on the VAG’s side, on the sidewalk, and pushes a petition or a donation file under your nose. Before, he would have hooked you like a bear in the rapids, catching the returning salmon. Now, you have a choice. You jump the sidewalk and continue walking… on the… empty street!
The problem that I see with the North Plaza is just that. It’s called the North Plaza. Helloooo!
North… as in “the sun rarely shows up!” kinda thing.
Go sit on VAG’s steps and look around you for a moment. At street level, three busy streets, Hornby, the moving parkade, thanks to the separated and empty bike lane; Georgia, with people trying desperately to exit downtown, and Howe, a literally one way to Hellish bridges.
Then, look up…
If you didn’t know what Tunnel Vision is, you’ll experience one.
It’s not the design of the North Plaza that makes it unpopular and underutilized. It’s the sun, or the lack of it, oh and the lack of ‘thangs or happenings’, not happening!
Yes, if one wants to really have a go at it, one would need to start with better programming.
Lonely Fountain?
No problemo, introduce Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays “Wet T-shirt” or “Girls Gone Wild” contests. Body painting and tattooing, optional.
Empty Stairs?
Tuesdays and Thursdays stage Chippendales Male Revues. Pole dancing in G-strings and Black Boots based on popular demand.
You’ll need to book in advance. My promise.
Deserted lawn?
Do not inhale, unless you mean it!
Saturdays and Sundays initiate a Pot Exchange (hey, here’s a new name for the Mayor’s Task Force) and smoking cultural extravaganza, in a safe, cultural rich and relaxing environment. Turn the VAG speakers toward the Plaza and blow some Janis Joplin tunes.
100% success, guaranteed!
You’ll do Vancouver Art Gallery a big public service. First, they’d realize that they don’t have to move in order to get some attention. Membership will go up. All they’ll need to do is add ‘bongs for sale’ at their gift ‘members only’ shop.
Last but not least, a few big colorful, happy “Les parapluies de lumière”, sunny, colorful big umbrellas to brighten the sky when it’s raining, and filter the UVs when it’s sunny.
It’s the sun, all right, all right…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmYT79tPvLg
Do you know what I mean, yeah, no?
We live in Vancouver and this keeps us busy.
51 Ned // Nov 7, 2012 at 8:09 pm
Good one, Glissy!
“All it’s needed is a bit of sun… in the sky, all right, all right…”
I think no one thought of that. I wasn’t. That’s a damn good point.
52 Roger Kemble // Nov 8, 2012 at 11:03 am
Yes, “All it’s needed is a bit of sun . . . “.
Elementary my dear Glissie @ #50 elementary . . .
53 Frank Ducote // Nov 8, 2012 at 2:23 pm
Trish@7 – “This plaza has needed attention for a long time, I think it can be agreed. It reached a nadir when the VAG underground vault went in and all the mature trees on that side of the plaza had to go. What was a formal symetrical space became a lopsided weirdness.”
Given this statement (which I hope most people would agree with), I am a bit confused about your closing comment about wasting money to change this space while the VAG vault is there. Can you provide a clearer picture of what you think should happen in the short term, that is, prior to VAG leaving, if they ever do.
Thanks.
54 jolson // Nov 9, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Thanks Frank for the reference to Brooklyn Museum. A good example of adaptation.
It seems to this writer that this building and forecourt need the front door for the place making Rattenbury surely intended. I don’t think it matters who the tenant is; VAG or otherwise. Any money spent on the plaza should be conditional to installing a front door.
To those who suddenly discovered the North Pole; it doesn’t matter where north is, the sun is never in the same place more than once in a year in any case.
55 Voony // Nov 10, 2012 at 11:25 pm
To be sure, when he doesn’t need to criticize Vision to defeat an idea, Glissando Remy can be very relevant.
(many of his point, are also present in this critic)
Leave a Comment