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Bike lanes here to stay, in case you hadn’t guessed. Also no right-hand turns off Dunsmuir

June 7th, 2012 · 40 Comments

In case you missed it elsewhere, the report that recommends keeping the current separated lanes downtown.

No surprise. I couldn’t imagine anyone ripping out bike lanes anywhere without being branded a Rob Ford-loving troglodyte. The power of momentum. Plus, in spite of complaints from all and sundry that the lanes are frequently “empty,” they are not any emptier than many roads and sidewalks in the city.

The report also includes the rationale for why it’s impractical to re-introduce right-hand turn lanes off Dunsmuir to Seymour and Hornby even though 1. right-hand turns ARE allowed at Beatty and Homer 2. The bike traffic is lower at the Seymour/Hornby end of the street than at the Beatty/Homer end, which is closer to the viaduct. Not that I’m annoyed.

 

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  • IanS

    Francis, I share you lack of surprise at the result. Can anyone imagine a result which would case Vision to backtrack on this?

    And, while I think some of the City’s numbers are suspect (in particular, the 5% increase in ridership over the last year on the Burrard Bride seems inconsistent with the data posted the City’s website), I think it’s pretty clear from the Report that the damage caused by the bike lanes is minimal. Certainly, there’s nothing in the Report to suggest that even an objective observer would consider removing the lanes.

  • Bill Lee

    However, the removal of the bike lanes as configured could take place in hours by another council.
    In the Big Smoke, Toronto, “[Mayor Rob Ford’s] Killing the cycling committee was a shot across the bow, but the first direct attack on Toronto cycling happened next, when the Jarvis, Birchmount and Pharmacy bike lanes were targeted for removal. And for Jarvis, the clock is terminally ticking.”
    Yet also in June 2012, “Ford will be the second city official to accept Toronto’s Bicycle Friendly Communities Award. McMahon presented it to public works chair Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong at the Ontario Bike Summit in April. ”

    Dan Egan, formerly active in Vancouver cycling advocacy, points out in this week’s Now paper (a Georgia Straight-like freebie in Toronto) that the Dupont Street bike route is also in danger.

    Page 2 (of 15 pages. Read it. It’s short. ) in the report shows that cyclists (how did they identify them?) are recreational in their use of routes. It is not obvious from the quote that these are hard-core commuters.
    “Research published by the University of British Columbia in 2007, entitled Cycling in
    Cities, found that Vancouverites’ most preferred cycling route types are paved offstreet
    paths (e.g. Vancouver’s seawall), residential streets with traffic calming marked
    as bike routes (i.e. Vancouver’s local street bikeways) and paths next to major streets
    separated by a barrier (i.e. separated bike lanes).”

    Why can’t the city provide, online, copies of all the datasets and reports that make up reports so that we can chew on them instead of city-supplied granola?

    Page 4
    “In July 2011, staff reported to Council that the separated bicycle lanes on Dunsmuir Street, Hornby Street and connecting streets had resulted in:
    • an increase in bicycle usage,
    • a small but measurable increase in the percentage of women and children cycling,
    • no change in pedestrian volumes and improved pedestrian comfort,
    • no change in vehicle volumes,
    • negligible and localized change in vehicle travel times, and,
    • a decrease in vehicle collisions.”:

    Hmm.

  • spartikus

    For the statistically inclined, the person behind this blog has crunched the numbers and made some pretty nifty charts.

  • MB

    I hope they have a decent budget to install well-designed barrier structures and planters, maybe a little real stone here & there, not to mention drinking fountains and the odd seating area.

    Bike lanes deserve more than mere utilitarian treatment.

  • Agustin

    @ Bill,

    Why can’t the city provide, online, copies of all the datasets and reports that make up reports

    Research published by the University of British Columbia in 2007

    I’m not sure I follow. Why would the City have background info for UBC research?

  • Paul T.

    @Agustin

    If it’s quoted in the report, at least a link to the data should be provided. Espy for an issue that is as contentious as the separated bike lanes are.

    As for the stats, the city has taken the interesting way of looking at year to year ridership from April to March… hmmmm I wonder why they did that? Could it be because if you looked January to December, ridership was actually down on the Burrard Bridge? Nahhhhhh couldn’t be.

    And the thing that makes me cry the hardest, is that the route that is ACTUALLY working and getting more cyclists year over year is Dunsmuir. No matter which way you slice and dice those numbers, it works. Good thing Comrade Meggs is about to put TNT under the viaducts to make way for his developer buddies to build high-rises. Bah. The Visionistas strike again.

  • spartikus

    If it’s quoted in the report, at least a link to the data should be provided.

    It’s a PDF of a paper report. If you’re interested in the UBC report…well….

  • spartikus

    Could it be because if you looked January to December, ridership was actually down on the Burrard Bridge? Nahhhhhh couldn’t be.

    A more benign explanation is the City only had stats to March 2012 when the report was written.

  • Agustin

    @Paul T., and further to spartikus:

    As for the stats, the city has taken the interesting way of looking at year to year ridership from April to March… hmmmm I wonder why they did that?

    There’s also the fact that Dunsmuir Viaduct wasn’t installed until March 2010, so we’d have been comparing different time periods for Dunsmuir Viaduct and Burrard Bridge.

    Lastly, including data from February 2010 would skew things because there was a bit of a party happening in town that month.

    If it’s quoted in the report, at least a link to the data should be provided.

    That’s generally not how things work. If it were, City reports (and newspapers, and scientific journals, and ….) would all be extremely large and unmanageable. This is why we have a system for referring to other reports. If you are curious about a citation, you are free to go look it up.

    And the thing that makes me cry the hardest, is that the route that is ACTUALLY working and getting more cyclists year over year is Dunsmuir. No matter which way you slice and dice those numbers, it works. Good thing Comrade Meggs is about to put TNT under the viaducts to make way for his developer buddies to build high-rises.

    I’m glad (and somewhat surprised, I admit) you are so touched by the success of the Dunsmuir Viaduct lane!

    I do believe that Mr Meggs (I believe that would be his preferred salutation), and the City’s engineers have thought about cycling access in the plans for the Viaducts.

    You can have a look at their ideas here: http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/currentplanning/fcflats/

  • Bill Lee

    @Agustin // Jun 7, 2012 at 6:17 pm #9

    “That’s generally not how things work. If it were, City reports (and newspapers, and scientific journals, and ….) would all be extremely large and unmanageable. This is why we have a system for referring to other reports. If you are curious about a citation, you are free to go look it up.”

    But they had them at hand, and nowadays it is mainly digital, taking up no space and shared on a common server, they could put a link in the PDF file as presented.

    I read science reports often and the datasets are now archived and made available.
    If not the full reports referred to, then PubMed, CAS, WoS summaries and abstracts when shouldn’t change and one can get the full texts to read from that.

    I’ve been reading the Dutch SWOV report on helmets and they give links even if it is only to their e-card files. See end of article page on page 6-7 PDF “SWOV. Fact sheet. Bicycle helmets.” 245 K 7 pages. swov.nl/rapport/Factsheets/UK/FS_Bicycle_helmets.pdf Retrieved 30 May 2012.
    It can be and is being done.

    As for looking it up, they don’t give very good textual references, and may not be found with Bing or Google or Blekko.
    Examples:
    “In October 2010, Council approved the construction of a trial two-way separated bicycle lane on Hornby Street and connecting streets.”
    [why is it difficult to give a City minutes link]

    “These transportation priorities were reinforced in 2010 by the Greenest City Action Team’s report Vancouver 2020 “A Bright Green Future”.”
    [ a pdf at xxncouver.ca/greenestcity/PDF/Vancouver2020-ABrightGreenFuture.pdf ]

    “Research published by the University of British Columbia in 2007, entitled Cycling in Cities, found that Vancouverites’ most preferred cycling route types are paved off-street paths… ”
    [ a report,
    XXclingincities.spph.ubc.ca/ has 62 links embedded in it. If they can do it at UBC, why can’t the city give links. The technology is there, we can follow along. ]

    “In July 2011, staff reported to Council that the separated bicycle lanes on Dunsmuir Street, Hornby Street and connecting streets had resulted in…..”
    [ and why not links to the raw data to see that they are right, as they will be. It is a matter of a few clicks. They have an Open Data site to store large files as trees, lamp posts, 311 calls, bike route counts etc. data.vancouver.ca/ However they don’t keep it up. The last front page posting of March 2012 implies that this is not a priority. ]

    Never mind my gripe. We will get some information in various ways, even data-leaks from the city staff.

  • Agustin

    @Bill Lee, I agree that it would be nice to have better citations, but that’s different than including all cited reports as appendices or something.

    Anyway, it’s a minor thing, as you say.

  • Paul T.

    @Agustin

    1. The report is dated June 5th. You can’t tell me engineers didn’t have April or May figures to cross reference before they finalized the figures. They’ve conveniently delayed posting these numbers because they know they won’t back up the claims. After next week it won’t matter.

    2. Please note I said “espy for an issue that is as contentious…” I wouldn’t expect it for every issue, but I believe Bill Lee makes a good point. Doesn’t seem too difficult to link things in.

    3. Finally, I know commenters on here like to try to make this into a wedge issue where if you don’t support the current bike lanes, you’re anti bike lanes. And you’re free to continue to do that Agustin. But fact is, many of us don’t dislike cycling or cycling infrastructure. We do have a problem with poorly planned cycling infrastructure that is more about destroying vehicle infrastructure than it is about improving cycling infrastructure.

    Vision said build Hornby and they will come. Well they didn’t. They said build Burrard and they will come. Well they didn’t.

    Vision said businesses won’t be affected. Well they have. Vision said the Burrard bridge bike lanes will be safer. Well they aren’t.

    My question to you Agustin is, unless you’re a Vision hack, how can you still be entrusting good judgement to build cycling infrastructure to people who have been so wrong?

    The one route they’ve got right is Dunsmuir and they’re going to destroy it. I can’t believe you can’t see the forest for the trees on this.

  • spartikus

    You understand, Paul, that your #1 is a very serious accusation against the professionals of the Engineering Dept. You’re not besmirching Vision here, you’re besmirching them. And you’ve offered no evidence to support your claim they are withholding data, much like in the past no one has offered evidence that “numbers were altered”.

    I’ll offer the same suggestion to you I’ve made to those others: Email or phone the Engineering Dept and ask – politely – if the data was available for the report. And if not when will it be made public.

    And I just want to clarify – you believe that a report dated June 5th was entirely written on…oh June 4th?

    And you are surprised when people wonder about this being made into a wedge issue?

    Chutzpah.

  • Agustin

    Never mind, Paul. I could go through your comment and dispute it bit by bit, backed up by statistics and evidence, but if you believe the engineering department is acting in bad faith, then it’ll just go in one ear and out the other.

    I agree with spartikus: if you think there’s a problem with the data, give them a call or send them an email. If that doesn’t get you anywhere, you could always call up one of the non-Vision councilors, the press, or APEGBC. Luckily for all of us, engineers work under a mandated code of ethics, and violations are taken very seriously by the profession.

  • Paul T.

    Oh now now now… You’re putting words in my mouth. The Engineers who wrote that report, with Peter Judd at the lead, are wonderful civil servants. The engineering department has said quite clearly that they are taking their direction from council. In fact in the brief synopsis of the report it even says: “This supports the goals of Vancouver 2020: A Bright Green Future and the project goals of encouraging more people of all ages and abilities to cycle for transportation and recreation.”

    So Engineering had to look at the issue through the filter of council. The engineers know which side of the bread has the butter. I’m sure if the NPA had been elected, staff’s report would have looked much different. The NPA would have directed staff to add the filter of impact on business, which BTW is GLORIOUSLY missing from this report. Even though it’s the number one cited reason why people opposed the “trials”.

    And Agustin, I don’t believe there is a problem with the data… It’s right there clear as day, but if you slide the ruler around, you can get that data to say different things. It’s a pretty common trick when writing reports to backup a theory. One that people have been using for a long time.

    A year to me is January to December. The Burrard Bridge trial has been opened for several years, there is no need to go April to March. But since they did move the ruler as April to March, conveniently we see an increase, not a decrease.

    Here’s what I’d rather see the city do. And yes, you can be sure opposition councillors know my position on this. Leave Dunsmuir alone, it’s working, every day it’s seeing more riders. Spend the money to implement the right hand turns that business is calling for. I doubt that would have a negative effect on cycling numbers.

    As for Hornby, continue the trial, but try something else. Numbers are down, businesses are hurting. It’s a lose lose right now. So time for a different approach. Many have been calling for a trial of a one-way contra-direction, parked vehicle separated bike lane. And I agree with that. You maintain separation, but you lose the danger of having a cyclist approach you from a blind spot that even shoulder checking won’t solve.

    There are so many options out there, Hornby seems to be the ideal street to try them out on. You can move the pedestrian and bike crossings further away from the intersection which would clear up the problem of cyclists not paying attention to the delayed crossing signal. And also help with the problem of Vehicle driver confusion.

    As for Burrard Bridge, I don’t have any ideas how to make that more popular. The numbers keep dwindling, and there doesn’t appear to be a way to fix it. So I’m comfortable leaving it the way it is, but would welcome ANY idea how to make it better. The north end is still a cluster-bleep.

    However, having said that, (on Hornby) if council isn’t willing to at least try to make some sensible changes to try out new things, then I think it is a failed experiment and needs to be ripped out and returned to the way it was.

  • spartikus

    You’ve simply rephrased you think they deliberately withheld date to write a misleading report. You offer no proof.

    Numbers are down

    Using the spreadsheet available here I count 47,600 for Hornby Jan 1st – March 31st 2011 and 59,074 for the same period in 2012.

    As for businesses hurting, some claim that. But only 4 businesses out of 150 opened their books for Stantec when the economic assessment was done. That was their big opportunity to prove hardship.

  • Paul T.

    Thank you for the numbers… I believe you may have missed a key point though. Those numbers from Jan 1 to Mar 31 2011 are actually from Jan 25 to Mar 31, because there is no data before then for 2011.

    We can extrapolate a variety of ways if you’d like.

    1. Average the numbers out over the numbers of days we have, and back fill the data with those averages. Which would give a new grand total for 2011 of 64,909. Compared to 59,074 for 2012. A decline of 8.9%.

    2. There seems to be marked decrease in January on the weekends compared to weekdays. So we can average those numbers out for weekends and weekdays in January and back fill the data that way. That would give a new grand total of 64,312 in 2011. A decline 8.1%.

    3. Or just compare January 25 to March 31. 2011 had 47,600. 2012 had 46,479. There is a little bit of an anomaly because 2012 had one extra day being a leap year so I would argue we should remove the average of one day to compensate. That would bring the 2012 numbers down to 45,785. Giving a decline of 3.8%.

    See Spartikus, anyway you slice the numbers the numbers are down. That’s despite less rainy days for the first three months of this year compared to last year.

  • spartikus

    Hmm…you’re right on that. I missed it started on Jan 25, 2011. But I think it’s premature to declare an instance of decline of 4% up to possibly 9% in winter as an indication “it’s not working”. It could be a trend, or it could be statistical noise.

    The summer numbers will tell the tale.

  • Paul T.

    Unfortunately by then the trial will be over, so I suppose you may be agreeing with me Spartikus? Too early to tell, extend the trial at the very least? Mayhaps even try something that is a different design? Heck maybe a different route?

  • spartikus

    We see a slight decline in January & March 2012 over 2011 (with February 2012 higher than February 2011). I don’t see a compelling rationale to dispute the recommendation in the Staff Report.

  • Paul T.

    Dang it, and I thought I ALMOST had you seeing the light finally. A boy can dream.

  • Agustin

    Paul, I think you are asking the wrong question.

    It is indeed too early to tell if Hornby’s second year of existence will see more riders than its first year of existence, but why do we need that information before judging if it’s worth keeping?

    There are other reasons to keep it.

    For instance, safety has increased on Hornby (see the report):

    Collisions of all types (involving vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians) are down 19% on Dunsmuir Street and down 18% on Hornby Street (2008 and 2009 vs. 2011).

    There’s also the network effect that Hornby creates with Dunsmuir and Burrard.

    Re. your question about increasing ridership on Burrard: I ask myself the same thing, and I think that it would help to have more separated lanes in the areas leading to the bridge, both on the south and north side. For example, a lane on Cornwall would likely help. Maybe a lane on West 1st, between Cypress and Burrard…

    I also like your idea of trying different lane configurations. Maybe on Cornwall or Commercial (between 1st and 10th) we could see separated lanes on each side of the street, next to each curb.

  • Bill Lee

    @spartikus // Jun 8, 2012 at 12:54 pm #16

    Interesting. Your * here] above shows recent data July 2009 to 31 March 2012.
    http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/cycling/separated/dunsmuir_results.htm

    But the data.vancouver.ca/datacatalogue/index.htm for the two topic lines “Name & Information about Data” [ the titles are links to a information page about the XLS, CSV, SHP etc. data ]

    “Bike lane stats (2009 & 2010) – Burrard Bridge dataXLS ”
    and
    “Bike lane stats – Hornby & Dunsmuir (including Burrard Bridge) dataXLS”

    only goes up to 30 June 2011 though the ‘link’ to the title and text explanation from the Data.Vancouver site is the same as your *here] one.
    That is the data posted on Data.Vancouver is old, and who would think to look for a miniscule updated link called “here” in the accompanying explanation text.

    Sigh. Right hand and Left hand are not coordinated.
    So much for Open Data initiative.

  • Chris Porter

    If you’re interested in looking at the bike lane data, I’d recommend this chart: http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/VancouverBikeLaneStats/RidershipVolumes
    Some observations:
    February and March 2010 saw abnormally high cycling volumes on the Burrard Bridge (thanks to the travel restrictions during the Olympics). One reason to start year-over-year comparisons in April 2010.
    It’s interesting to note the network effect that Hornby had on cycling volumes on Dunsmuir. The Hornby lane was installed in December 2010, and since then volumes on Dunsmuir have risen dramatically (the summer-time peak went from 46,000 to 68,000).

  • Joe Just Joe

    My Google-Fu is as good as some other members, does anyone have the y-o-y data for Pender St? I don’t doubt total numbers on Pender and Dunsmuir combined would still be up, but I am curious is some of the Dunsmuir increase was in part by bike traffic shifting over.

  • IanS

    @Agustin #22:

    You write: “Re. your question about increasing ridership on Burrard: I ask myself the same thing, and I think that it would help to have more separated lanes in the areas leading to the bridge,”

    I have to say, I very much admire the chutzpah of this argument. If the data showed a significant increase in cycle use with the separated bike lanes, that would (one suspects) lead to demands for more separated bike lanes. However, the data shows that there hasn’t been a significant increase. So what does that call for? More separated bike lanes!

    Bravo, sir. Bravo. 🙂

  • Agustin

    Ian, my friend- grab another cup of coffee and take a second look at the numbers. Ridership most certainly has increased.

    They built it and people came! No reason to believe it won’t work on other routes.

  • IanS

    Agustin, I don’t dispute that ridership has increased. (Or, to be more precise, the number of cyclists using the particular routes has increased; I don’t see anything in the data to suggest the cycling itself is up.) The numbers show that, though the increase seems to have peaked on Burrard. My statement of admiration arose from your creative use of the lack of expected increase.

  • Chris Porter

    IanS brings up a valid point. Increases along Dunsmuir and Hornby are likely in part due to cannibalizing cycling traffic from Pender and Burrard respectively.

    To determine if cycling itself is up, you’ll have to wait for the census numbers to be released (if you can trust them). “Commuting Patterns and Places of Work” is probably the dataset you’re looking for, but it likely won’t be released until 2013.

    With respect to the volumes on the Burrard Bridge, it’s the route that sees the most recreational cyclists (as evidenced by the high weekend volumes), and it’s also the most closely tied to weather. If we have a warm, sunny summer, expect cycling volumes on the bridge to rise significantly over last year. If we have another cold July, it will likely mirror last year.

  • IanS

    I agree Chris.

    I don’t want to spend a lot of time on this, because I understand that it doesn’t really matter, but I believe that the report indicates that the volume of traffic on the bike lane routes is pretty much the same as it was before the bike lanes. I infer from that the bikes lanes have not resulted in people cycling instead of driving. (Or, if we accept that car use has been declining prior to installation of the bike lanes, perhaps we can infer that bike lanes have stopped the perceived decline? That seems counterintuitive, though.)

    If there is an increase in actual cycling numbers, I suspect it’s people who would normally take transit. But that’s just speculation, as we don’t know whether there has been such an increase.

  • Richard

    @IanS

    It is not surprising that the numbers on Burrard Bridge have not risen too much. It is pretty obvious the lack of good connections to the bridge from the south is the issue. The connections have not been improved so why would people who are uncomfortable with cycling in traffic start cycling if there are no connections that are separated from traffic.

    Also, if you recall, safety was the main reason why improvements were made with the bridge. The city had been sued once and realized that they were in a legal poor position should another cyclist get seriously injured. As there has been a reduction in injuries, that has been accomplished. According to the report, the main problem remaining is motorists illegally turning right onto Pacific which hopefully be fixed by making these dangerous right turns more difficult.

    The main problem with the Hornby lanes is there is a real lack of safe access to it. The 1997 Transportation Plan recommended bike lanes on Pacific, Nelson and Smithe as well improved bike access on Comox/Helmcken and Robson. 15 years later, there is only bike lanes on Dunsmuir and it is only westbound west of Hornby. No eastbound route. With this lack of access, it is not surprising that there are not more people cycling on Hornby.

    Imagine how few people would drive downtown if there was only one north-south and one east-west road that safely and conveniently accommodated motor vehicles

  • IanS

    @Richard #31,

    As I said, I’m not going to spend a lot of time on this. I posted an awful lot about it when they were first put in (way way too much, in retrospect) and see no reason to repeat all of that now.

    The “main reason” the bikes lanes were put in seems to shift, depending on which numbers are being talked about and which justification is being advanced at any particular time. The whole “legal liability” justification is hogwash, pure and simple.

    Based on my review of the numbers, then and now, my view is that the bike lanes were not money well spent and I would oppose any new separated bike lanes, at least until there’s some evidence to suggest that they are of benefit.

    To be fair, as I said in my original post, they don’t seem to have caused any significant damage, so I would also oppose removing them.

    In saying that, I acknowledge that my opposition means nothing and that people who believe in bike lanes will continue to believe in them, regardless of anything I say.

  • Richard

    @IanS

    Really IanS, don’t you care about people’s safety at all? Even if you don’t, injuries and collisions are a huge cost to society both economically and in traffic delays. In fact, even Transport Canada and AAA state that the societal cost of collisions is about 3 times that of congestion.

    Total collisions on Hornby have gone down significantly benefiting drivers, pedestrians and cyclists. If cyclists are diverted from Burrard to Hornby, that is a huge benefit as Burrard is or at least was one of the worst streets in the city for bicycle collisions.

    Lastly, research from Montreal has found that streets with separated bike lanes much like ours are safer for cyclists than other streets.

  • IanS

    @Richard #33:

    No, Richard. I don’t care about people at all. I want them all to be hurt in traffic accidents. You have divined my position so precisely, that there’s really no need for me to say any more about it.

  • Paul T.

    LOL @ IanS.

    It does feel like talking to the wall sometimes, but I appreciate your efforts. Keep up the faith, one day common sense will prevail.

  • Agustin

    @ Ian,

    My statement of admiration arose from your creative use of the lack of expected increase.

    I think it’s my turn to have a cup of coffee because I don’t get what you mean here 🙂 But I’m not often accused of having a lot of chutzpah, so I’ll take it where I can get it, even if it is a bit sarcastic 😉

    Anyway, my point was that separated lanes seem to have worked to increase ridership. I say “seem” because there is still the question of whether ridership as a whole has gone up, or whether people have just shifted from other routes to the separated ones. I’d love to see data from the other routes…

    It looks to me (again, I couldn’t say with 100% certainty based on the available data, but I think odds are high) that the presence of Hornby helped increase ridership on Dunsmuir. Hence my suggestion that additional separated lanes leading to Burrard from the south could help with ridership there.

    As well, Richard’s hyperbolic rhetoric aside, the report does cite statistics that collisions on Hornby are down since the lane was put in. That is fairly good evidence that the separated lane has helped with safety for all road users. I’m hopeful that these results would be replicated elsewhere.

  • Agustin

    PS: I just realised I’ve been calling you Ian instead of IanS. Sorry about that! (Some people are picky about their user names… not sure if you are or not.)

  • Bill Lee

    Bike lanes locked in place.

    And one person got councillor Heather Deal to start banning all right turns after the fuss about Dunsmuir
    —– Deal Tweets —
    Heather Deal ?@VanRealDeal
    Turning cars are biggest threat to peds. Intersections without turns are safest. #vanpoli
    2:01 PM – 13 Jun 12 via Twitter for iPad
    1h Heather Deal Heather Deal ?@VanRealDeal
    While some turns necessary, safety is a factor and should be taken into account.
    ———–
    So a wiser person tweeted.
    @VanRealDeal So by that logic, perhaps all car turns in the city should be prohibited?

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